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Can someone please give me the value added aspects for migrating from coldfusion to asp.net framework. I would appreciate the insight, because frankly, I can't find any reason to do so. Understand, I'm not a cf or a .net lover. I'm simply not the kind of person who buys the company line of doing something just because we can. I also don't believe in spending mega bucks to re-engineer and force a 12 person cf shop to learn something new just because we can. And most importantly, I'm of the mentality - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Finally, I'm trying to save my customer from a person who has a lot of power, who knows nothing about technology, and lets other people tell him the latest buzzwords thereby not doing the research and jumping into something that could be a disaster. Love to hear your opinions. Thanks.
Full disclosure: I'm a long-time professional CF developer, and I'm not crazy about ASP.NET.
That said, there are some advantages. If you are already running Windows servers, you save some on licensing (although this only applies if you are expanding or upgrading your farm). There are more .NET developers out there.
There are, however mitigating factors. If you have to rewrite everything, or write in a language that will slow down your development, then the cost savings have to be balanced against salary and time not spent on new features.
Also, more developers does not mean better developers. If there are more .NET shops, then there is more competition for the talented developers.
Unfortunately, your question is highly subjective, and there isn't a right answer. There are advantages to each language. You need to look at your specific situation to gauge which is more appropriate.
As some one who has been around the block with cf and .net here are my pro's and con's of porting your (clients) code to .net
Pro
Visual Studio. A professional grade IDE with tight integration with other microsoft tools is very nice. You can use cfeclipse to offset this somewhat but visual studio is an out of the box solution which is tailored for use with the .net languages. There are also tools in vs which are just not present in cfeclipse.
Strict typing. YMMV on this one but if it is something that the devs are used to and want, it will help remove a lot of ambiguity in code. If your devs are not used to it, it could seems like a hindrance.
Updating the legacy. Again this is very situational but if you are dealing with legacy code (much of the cf I've seen is) then porting to .net could give you a chance to update/modernize your code. However if you are using modern cf with cfcs then this is less of a pro. (I do believe you can write perfectly acceptable modern oo code in cf).
License costs. If you are on a shoestring budget this may come into play. In most environments the cost of CF licenses is negligible.
Lower memory usage. This is very dependent on the app but .net does seem to use less memory.
Debugger. It is nice to be able to step through code in .net.
Con
Rewrites are expensive and can go horribly wrong. Much ink has been spilled on this subject.
You lose the administrator. .net handles most of its configuration through config files and IIS settings. If you are used to the administrator this could be a set back. It is very nice to handle all of your datasources, redirects, etc.
.net requires more code. I am not the most experienced .net dev but my limited experience has been that when doing two equivalent tasks in cf and .net (c#), the .net almost always comes out longer. ColdFusion is just a higher level language.
Wash
Cost of devs. The pool of .net devs seem to be much larger but (at least in my area) the CF devs are a little cheaper. Also being an older language, CF devs may have more experience in the "real world" while .net devs may have more school training. (again YMMV).
Code style. Some people love to hate the syntax of CF. (I am guilty of long tirades against the # operator). At the end of the day it gets the job done and IMO is not grounds for a rewrite.
Buzz Factor. CF is getting a little long in the tooth and people will ask "You guys still use COLDFUSION !?". It is still supported though and used extensively so we are not talking COBOL here. Still you are not as likely to see cool new features like that which MS is capable of bringing to .net. Here you just need to look at value added. I would not make this decision based on the "flavor of the month" but what exact features .net could bring to your development.
Learning a new framework/language. This is completely subjective. If you WANT to learn a new framework this could be an excellent chance to get paid for doing so. On the other hand if there is resistance to learning this does not work in your favor. Also if you are dealing with a strict deadline type of work place, new environments and languages throw a lot of chaos into things like estimating time.
Nick makes some great points. I currently use both .Net and Coldfusion and I can say the main factors that make me long for .net when using CF are:
Visual Studio - there is no other IDE out there that can compare to this. (Intellisense is amazing). Eclipse pales in comparison and Builder is just pointless.
Strongly typed language - type safe, compile time checking etc.
Object creation and garbage collection performance - in my experience, if you try and go the the OO approach with CF, you need to tweak the hell out of your JVM to get any kind of performance. CF is a real dog when it comes to this. CF 9 is apparently more efficient, but .net has great performance out the box.
Syntax - tags are horrible IMO.
The biggest selling point of CF though is its ease of use, and unbelievably quick prototyping speed.
I was trying to make a a few simple http get request in asp.net the other day, and I so wished I had something as simple and as quick as cfhttp.
When people ask me to compare the two languages, I boil it down to this. If you want a simple site, or need to prototype a site quickly, or you're developing an internal facing application like a CMS where performance is not critical, then go CF. Don't fork out for a license though. Railo all the way.
However, if you're developing a large, performance critical site, or you are a new developer looking to learn a platform, I would go with .net.
As a final footnote, this is highly subjective. The only advice that is truly helpful is to try both and make up your own mind.
I just wanted to add a couple of little comments to Nick's post :
IDE : There is also now CFBuilder from adobe. Still no Visual Studio from what I hear of VS, but does include the likes of a line debugger if that's what you want. My personal preference is CFEclipse out of the two, but that is, as I say a personal preference.
EDIT : And as Peter points out there is Fusion Debug available as a step debugger for ColdFusion
"CF Long in the tooth" : is not a bad thing. Its a solid technology that gets regular version and point releases and has been around longer than most development languages, so has the benefit of maturity. CF9.0.1 was released recently. CF X is in the works. Railo and Open BlueDragon get regular updates as well, probably more regularly than Adobe ColdFusion, but that is the advantage of OSS.
"Licence Costs" : In the context of this question, where CFML is already in use, licence costs don't really count. Plus it could be said, that if you were to put ColdFusion on say a CentOS server, then its actually cheaper to run ColdFusion than .Net after you figure in the cost of paying for a Windows Server licence. There are also Railo and OpenBlueDragon CFML servers both of which are free to use. Swings and roundabouts.
To comment on something that Bigfellahull mentions.
"Performance" : You can quite happily build some really badly performing applications in both .net and CFML. In both cases the performance comes down to knowing how to write good code and how to configure your server. As a CF developer, I can say that having your server engine based on a Java Server has a load of benefits for performance and extensibility. There are also products such as FusionReactor and SeeFusion that enable developers/server admins to monitor ColdFusion Servers to find and resolve applications and problems.
Having only been involved in a few odds and ends of .net development I'm not sure whether there are equivalents with the .net framework and IIS.
What I want to reiterate from Nick's answer is that really what it comes down to is the cost and risk associated with re-skilling and re-tooling developers and re-engineering a project in a different language.
As Nick says :
Rewrites are expensive and can go horribly wrong. Much ink has been spilled on this subject.
ColdFusion is awesome full-feature technology stack. Ask your person what exactly you'll need to do in .NET and explan that you can make the same with ColdFusion faster and better.
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I found around 8 Strenghts and flaws of using APEX over another program(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Application_Express), but i am not sure i quite understand WHEN to use it.
From what i understand, if you want a fast and easy-to-use development tool related to Oracle, Apex is your first choice. While if you need a complex solution, APEX won't fit.
I would like to know you guys opinion on this. In my case, i need to know if i should recommand this product or not for a raquetball club. Since it is not a big company, i believe HTML DB would be the best choice because we want as less manipulations as possible once it's implemented. We also don't want the owner of the club to pay a lot of money to get somoeone who can develop updates.
Apex is free, and an oracle XE database is free too. Apex is rapid development.
But what you're asking depends on so much more.
From what i understand, if you want a fast and easy-to-use development
tool related to Oracle, Apex is your first choice.
Is an oracle database already being used?
Easy to use dev tool: yes, sure. But as with anything, it depends on whether you have some experience with it, what the specs and expectations are, ...
While if you need a complex solution, APEX won't fit.
Well,... Would a complex solution be so much less complex in another environment? Just how complex are we thinking? In my opinion, you can go pretty far in apex and adapt it to your needs. it might involve creating templates and plugins to set up a framework, but it is doable. An example would be apex projects whom have been completely integrated with ExtJS. Apex is not the answer to everything too, but it's good. If you'd stay within the Oracle stack for more involved/complex, i'd say the next thing is ADF. Personally, i'm not convinced by that one though. It also has its pros and cons (such as: requiring java knowledge. pro for some, con for others...)
In my case, i need to know if i should recommand this product or not for a raquetball club. Since it is not a big company, i believe HTML DB would be the best choice because we want as less manipulations as possible once it's implemented.
How large is this club? How intense will the website be used?
Is there a DB already? Is it Oracle?
Who has DBA knowledge (even basic)?
Who will develop?
If your specs are up to spec, then much fiddling shouldn't be necessary after the launch.
We also don't want the owner of the club to pay a lot of money to get somoeone who can develop updates
Who will host the server? Who will run it? Who will administrate it? Do you plan to go cloud-based?
I'd almost ventured to suggest PHP may be a good alternative if this is a small project. Those developers may be easier to find and less expensive than an apex/oracle developer. But then again, if you're planning to outsource it may be less of an issue. If your oracle instance would be in the cloud somewhere, you'd even be pretty safe i'd believe...
Really, what options are you trying to compare? You're asking about apex, do you have any experience with it?
Honestly, your question is not so much a question as it is an opener to a discussion. Each technology and database will have its pro's and cons, fans and dislikers.
Personally, i really like apex. It has a lot going for it, especially when you're already invested in the Oracle stack. And it is still growing, getting good support, and great releases with lots of new features.
I can't really say how it must be set up a (reliable) service from the ground up: server and database, doesn't matter how small, you'll need some understanding and knowledge for that. If you just wing it and cross your fingers, you'll burn them somewhere down the line. Same with development. But as far as i'm concerned that goes for any other tech. Unless you outsource those aspects of course.
Etc etc. There is much and more to be discussed this way.
I put a downvote there for these reasons: there is much to be discussed, it isn't really much of a question which has a conclusive answer. And it maybe only could fetch a conclusive answer if you put more specifications up there and get people of the concurrent platforms to respond.
Edit
I'd like to react on Daniel's post.
First I have to say that I am originally a PHP-Developer, and I really like this language and environment. Nevertheless I decided to do an internship this summer, where I am currently working with APEX. Together with another intern I am developing a bigger application, and I hope to give you some useful input. This only covers the development of the application, as I am not really involved in things like database administration and so on (although I have to say that a PHP Webspace with a MySQL Database also isn't to hard to administrate, especially if there are not too many users).
I'm a developer too, and i don't do server and database administration (corporate environment). Not that i haven't dabbled a bit here and there in my spare time, but i digress.
But my experience is that it gets very, very hard to solve tasks which are out of this range. That doesn't mean that you can't get multiple tables in one reports, some joining of tables is also not a big problem, and can be easily achieved. But if your application needs even more than this I cannot recommend APEX, so I totally agree with your rule, that complex applications should be created in another way.
So speaking as a PHP developer, would you even recommend PHP to achieve this? Would it be less or just as complex?
I'd also argue about complexity. I've worked on some large forms, which for me by now means there are more than your average amount of items, some dynamic actions, validations, maybe some custom process(es). I've not encountered extremely complex situations and honestly i'd question who created those expectations. Thinking outside the box may be a virtue at times, but that doesn't mean the box is always bad. Complex mechanisms or pages can maybe be broken down into more easily accomplishable parts. An example would be using modal pages to break it up.
I also think that the slogan with the limited programming experience is only partial true. It is only true if you have only easy applications, as you have already said. I personally also can't stand the mixing between an IDE and "easy to use"-forms.
I agree about limited programming experience: you'll only create the most basic forms and reports, and having almost no experience i'd think you'd shy away from even option pages in fear of breaking something. Same thing goes for even basic db and server administration: i wouldn't like to rely on such a person when there is no experienced backup (but a very small project as is apperently being described might be acceptable).
I too am only invested in the programming side.
It's also not very easy to create new templates and other things, at least in my opinion it would be much easier with other frameworks.
I'd say that the templates make things very flexible and are certainly not hard to use
And maybe even the worst thing: I think that this application is quite buggy. I don't know how many times simple deleting and new creation of a process/page/validation or whatever solved a problem, where you are simply not thinking of this solution.
Wow. I strongly disagree with this. I've maybe encountered one such thing over the course of a year and tons of forms. Not that i haven't heard of some problems on the OTN forums, but usually they had to do with upgrades.
Summary: I would only use APEX if you have application which REALLY fits it. That means just reports and forms, everything which is more results in pain debugging sessions (as this is also not easy in this environment...) and bad maintenance.
It is too bad that there are not that many large, public sites which use apex out there. As far as i'm aware, there are and have been large project involving apex, but those usually are in a corporate environment and thus are never shown off (can't be). I personally believe apex can be pushed a lot further than the basic forms+reports you mention (and i mean basic, because things will usually come down to forms+reports in this context).
Debugging does not have to be a pain though. If you provide enough debug messages and comments in your own code, that will help a great deal. Debugging the page, javascript console, and if needs be an autonomous error logging procedure to be used in your plsql packages,... I'd say there is plenty to help out (and if you're driven to this, you are working on some more complex material, and i assume that you have the knowledge to actually deal with the complexity you've set up).
And interesting point you raise lastly is maintenance though. I'd say a point on which apex should improve a lot is versioning, out of the box. Exports need to be improved so they can be broken up a lot easier.
Wow, look at that wall of text... I could've guessed this would turn out into a discussion.
First I have to say that I am originally a PHP-Developer, and I really like this language and environment. Nevertheless I decided to do an internship this summer, where I am currently working with APEX. Together with another intern I am developing a bigger application, and I hope to give you some useful input. This only covers the development of the application, as I am not really involved in things like database administration and so on (although I have to say that a PHP Webspace with a MySQL Database also isn't to hard to administrate, especially if there are not too many users).
To start we created a few applications, just to get a feeling. Afterwards we started with the easy parts of the application. APEX is really great if you only have to build some reports and forms to edit the entries of the database. It's very fast to create these things with the integrated wizards.
But my experience is that it gets very, very hard to solve tasks which are out of this range. That doesn't mean that you can't get multiple tables in one reports, some joining of tables is also not a big problem, and can be easily achieved. But if your application needs even more than this I cannot recommend APEX, so I totally agree with your rule, that complex applications should be created in another way.
I also think that the slogan with the limited programming experience is only partial true. It is only true if you have only easy applications, as you have already said. I personally also can't stand the mixing between an IDE and "easy to use"-forms. It's also not very easy to create new templates and other things, at least in my opinion it would be much easier with other frameworks.
And maybe even the worst thing: I think that this application is quite buggy. I don't know how many times simple deleting and new creation of a process/page/validation or whatever solved a problem, where you are simply not thinking of this solution.
Summary: I would only use APEX if you have application which REALLY fits it. That means just reports and forms, everything which is more results in pain debugging sessions (as this is also not easy in this environment...) and bad maintenance.
I am posting here as a guest--hopefully, I will create an account. I used O-HTML-DB from its early releases. We built pretty fine apps. I last used it in 2004, having moved to non-development roles.
Since 2007 though, I decided to revisit the tool and found out about APEX. I have since had my own test apps. I disagree with most of what the intern says.
If you have a limited objective (your business need and associated requirements), then your use of APEX will be limited. This is a very robust application, with sophisticated security features (I have been in InfoSec/Cyber since 2009.
Yes, you are correct than claims about APEX not requiring a solid development background are not accurate. You need to have a sound grasp of SQL/PL/SQL, JavaScript. But you c an also take great advantage of OTN, where developers generously share their know-how. When I started with O-HTML-DB, I had never built a DA in a business environment before. I had theoretical SQL skills. I was a Web Developer with a grasp of JavaScrip, training in Java from Learning Tree International (in addition to academics). But I and my colleague (we were two developers) learned a great deal from OTN. We built three Web apps, one of which supported over 6,000 users--just O-HTML-DB!
APEX has taken O-HTML-DB to new dimensions. You do not need to hard-code validations like we did with O-HTML-DB. Of course, you can modify, which requires a sound grasp of SQL/PL/SQL.
Maybe templating is somewhat confusing to many developers, understandably. But as you continue to "play" with APEX, I am sure you'll like it. It can do nearly anything. Only your limited vision will restrict it.
Erick
I'm asking the question after reading this article
http://stevehanov.ca/blog/index.php?id=95
Also isn't it a penalty to use cgi instead of fastcgi ?
Update: why some people do pretend like in answer "that you get 20-30% performance improvement" ? Is it pure guess or is this number coming from solid benchmark ? I have looked at HipHop performance is more in the scale of 10 times.
I've done webdev in a few languages and frameworks, including python, php, and perl. I host them myself and my biggest sites get around 20k hits a day.
Any language and framework that has reasonable speed can be scaled up to take 20k hits a day just by throwing resources at it. Some take more resources than others. (Plone, Joomla. I'm looking at you).
My Witty sites (none in production yet) take a lot more (from memory around 5000% more) pounding (using seige) than for example my python sites. Ie. When I hit them as hard as I can with seige, the witty sites serve a lot more pages per second.
I know it's not a true general test though.
Other speed advantages that witty gives you:
Multi threading
If you deploy with the built in websrever (behind ha-proxy for example) and have your app be multi-threaded .. it'll load a lot less memory than say a perl or php app.
Generally with php and perl apps, you'll have Apache fire up a process for each incoming connection, and each process loads the whole php interpreter, all the code and variables and objects and what not. With heavy frameworks like Joomla and Wordpress (depending on the number of plugins), each process can get pretyy humungous on memory consumption.
With the Wt app, each session loads a WApplication instance (a C++ object) and it's whole tree of widgets and stuff. But the memory the code uses stays the same, no matter how many connections.
The inbuilt Web2.0 ness
Generally with traditional apps, they're still built around the old 'http request comes in' .. 'we serve a page' .. 'done' style of things. I know they are adding more and more AJAXy kind of thigns all the time.
With Wt, it defaults to using WebSockets where possible, to only update the part of the page that needs updating. It falls back to standard AJAX, then if that's not supported http requests. With the AJAX and WebSockets enabled clients, the same WApplication C++ object is continually used .. so no speed is lost in setting up a new session and all that.
In response to the 'C++ is too hard for webdev'
C++ does have a bit of a learning curve. In the mid nineties we did websites in Java j2ee. That was considered commercially viable back then, and was a super duper pain to develop in, but it did have a good advantage of encouraging good documentation and coding practices.
With scripting websites, it's easy to take shortcuts and not realize they're there. For example one 8 year old perl site I worked on had some code duplicated and nobody noticed. Each time it showed a list of products, it was running the same SQL query twice.
With a C++ site, I think it'd have less chance because, in the perl site, there wasn't that much programming structure (like functions), it was just perl and embedded html. In C++ you'd likely have methods with names and end up with a name clash.
Types
One time, there was a method that took an int identifier, later on we changed it to a uuid string. The Python code was great, we didn't think we needed to change it; it ran fine. However there was little line buried deep down that had a different effect when you passed it a string. Very hard to track down bug, corrupted the database. (Luckily only on dev and test machines).
C++ would have certainly complained a lot, and forced us to re-write the functions involved and not be lazy buggers.
With C++ and Java, the compiler errors and warns a lot of those sorts of mistakes for you.
I find unit testing is generally not as completely necessary with C++ apps (don't shoot me), compared to scripting language apps. This is due to the language enforcing a lot of stuff that you'd normally put in a unit test for say a python app.
Summary
From my experience so far .. Wt does take longer to develop stuff in than existing frameworks .. mainly because the existing frameworks have a lot more out of the box stuff there. However it is easier to make extremely customized apps in Wt than say Wordpress imho.
From people I've spoken with who've moved from PHP to Wt (a C++ web framework) reported significant improvements. From the small applications I've created using Wt to learn it, I've seen it run faster than the same PHP type applications I created. Take the information for what you will, but I'm sold.
This reminds me how 20-30 years ago people were putting Assembly vs C, and then 10-20 years ago C vs C++. Of course C++ will be faster than PHP/Rails but it'll take 5x more effort to build maintainable and scalable application.
The point is that you get 20-30% performance improvement while sacrificing your development resources. Would you rather have you app work 30% faster or have 1/2 of the features implemented?
Most web applications are network-bound instead of processor-bound. Writing your application in C++ instead of a higher-level language doesn't make much sense unless you're doing really heavy computation. Also, writing correct C++ programs is difficult. It will take longer to write the application and it is more likely that the program will fail in spectacular ways due to misused pointers, memory errors, undefined behavior, etc. In general, I would say it is not worth it.
Whenever you eliminate a layer of interpretive or OS abstraction, you are bound to get some performance gain. That being said, the language or technology itself does not automatically mean all your problems are solved. I've fixed C++ code that took many hours to process a relatively simple set of records. The problem was in the implementation, and the fix was not related to the language's features or limitations.
Assuming things are all implemented correctly, you're sure to get better performance. The problem will be in finding the bugs. One of the problems with C++ is that many developers are currently "trained" or accustomed to having a lot of details related to memory management behind objects. This eliminates the need to consider things like, "What can happen if I pass this pointer around to several threads?" Sometimes it works well, but not always. You still have some subtleties of the language that you need to consider regardless of how the objects hide the nasty details.
In my experience, you'll need several seasoned C++ developers watching over the code to be able to keep the bugs and memory leaks from getting out of hand.
I'm certainly not sold on this. If you want a performance gain over PHP why not use a Java (or better yet Scala) framework? These are much better for web development, have nice, relatively easy to use frameworks and avoid a lot of the headaches of C++. I've always seen one of the main pluses of web-development (and most modern non-scientific/high performance applications) as being able to avoid the headaches that come along with C/C++ development.
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Closed 11 years ago.
I have been a C++ / Linux Developer till now and I am adept in this stack. Of late I have been getting opportunities that require Perl, Unix (with knowledge of C++,shell scripting) expertise. Organizations are showing interest even though I don't have much scripting experience to boast off. The role is more in a Support, maintenance project involving SQL as well. Off late I am in a fix whether to forgo these offers or not.
I don't know the dynamics of an IT organization and thus on one hand I fear that my C++ experience will be nullified and on the positive side I am getting to work on a new technology stack which will only add to my skill set.
I am sure, most of you at some point of time have encountered such dilemmas and would have taken some decision.
I want you to share your perspectives
on such a scenario where a person is
required to change his/her technology
stack when changing his/her job.
What are the merits and demerits in
going with either of the choices?
Also I know that C++ isn't going
anywhere in the near future. What
about perl? I have no clue as to what
the future holds for perl developer?
Whether there are enough
opportunities for a perl developer?
I am asking this question here because most of my fellow programmers face this career choice dilemma.
EDIT:
Since the last time I asked this question, I made up my mind to switch.
I was just about to sign on the dotted line but some divine intervention made me seek some clarification about the working hours, and to my horror, the profile required me to work in
shifts which I am never comfortable with. I was all the more livid because they didn't clarify this point earlier. It was a reputed organisation but still I gave them my piece of mind and said thank you very much.
Thanks.
Regarding changing of stack, it definitely helps you long term in your career, both from extra experience available to offer to next employer to expanded job set you can qualify for to increased programming IQ due to knowing different points of view (e.g. Perl, for all its scripting origins, when used properly, has both OO and very nice functional paradigms available, but this point applies to any new technology).
However, you must be willing to put extra effort in to actually learn new stack/environment/language, and to learn to do things new way (e.g. don't write C++ code in Perl :) - especially for that last benefit to kick in. Please note "environment" there - the jump involves for example learning new debuggers and debugging techniques (for me the hardest thing about C++ development after switching from Perl so far is probably doing effective gdb debugging after being used to flexibility/power of perl debugger).
Personally I had to make this jump twice - from C developer to Perl and 10 years later Perl to C++. I learned a lot both times, and am not sorry I made the jump. The first jump was from IT role (Junior SA/Production with some C coding) to a full-on developer, the second was just a jump between different business teams.
As for demerits, please be aware that you WILL lose your edge in whichever stack you're not currently using for a while. Not completely forget, but nowhere near where you left off - and that does not even count the fact that the stack may have naturally evolved in the time elapsed. Also, as I said, you MUST expect that to be effective, you have to put in a lot of effort to become fluent in idiomatics, philosophy and ecosystem of the new stack. E.g. simply learning Perl is a small piece of the puzzle - you need to become familiar with a large chunk of CPAN, just as you had to know STL etc... Not really a demerit as far as I'm concerned, but a point that needs to be kept in mind.
As for opportunities for Perl developer, this was extensively covered on SO before. While the absolute # of jobs is likely less than that of Java or C++ ones, a high quality developer will always be in demand, and there's plenty of companies (including, or may be especially, in financial industry) heavily using serious Perl development (as opposed to simple administrative scripting). The language itself is developing and moving forward as well.
This is a highly subjective question. Whether C++ is "going places" depends on where you look and who you ask. For instance, C++ is the development language for video games and graphics processing, and is also used a lot in device drivers in conjunction with C (usually I see a hybrid "C+-", where some features are used from C++ in conjunction with more C-style architecture).
I myself moved from a C/C++ environment into a mostly Perl one, with strong Unix all the while (I actually know next to no windows API programming, .NET, VB-Basic etc).
Basically what I would suggest is sticking with what you enjoy most. This may not be the same as what you currently know or are best at. There are opportunities in a diverse set of technologies. Don't also assume you should tie yourself to one environment -- dabble a little and have some fun. Many facets of programming are constant across languages and environments. Get good at problem solving, writing unit tests, refactoring and planning a project, and you'll do well no matter what set of technologies you're working with.
Why not use your C++ expertise when working with Perl (where appropriate)? It's quite possible to extend Perl with C and C++. I'm not suggesting that you write all your code in C++ just because you know it and than put a thin Perl layer on top, of course.
Being experienced in related technologies is a really big advantage, not a mis-qualification for a technical job. I would suggest you take the opportunity to learn a new technology. Going back from "experienced but rusty" to "on top of it" in your bread-and-butter discipline should be a piece of cake if you have to at a later point in time.
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Which sector of software industry uses C++?
C++ was for many years the holy grail of mission critical high performance development. However, it seems that for the past 10 years like much of the development world has moved to Java and C#. My quesiton is this, is C++ effectively relegated to embedded systems, OS, Browser and other special purpose development? Should I let this skillset go the way of the VB 6 and other skillsets that are no longer showing the same level of demand and value in the market? I love C++ and would love to update my knowledge in it, but I wouldn't even know where to begin to try to apply it to common business problems today.
Regards.
First of all, I doubt anybody can give a definitive answer -- there's just no way to tell exactly how much any particular language is really used. Nearly anything you can measure is a secondary measurement, such as how many people are advertising jobs using that language. The problem is that this tends to show relatively new languages as dominating to a much greater degree than is real.
That said, my belief is as follows. At one time, C++ was the hot new language on the block, and there was a bubble when it dominated the market. That bubble deflated quite a while ago. Since then, use of C++ has been growing on an absolute basis, but the market has been growing (quite a bit) faster so its shrinking on a relative basis.
There are a couple of reasons this doesn't show up in most secondary measures such as job advertisements though. A couple of the obvious ones include:
Many teams producing C++ have now had years to "settle in", so the turnover rate is relatively low.
It's now well established where it's used, so positions tend to be filled by internal promotions.
There's another effect I almost hesitate to mention, but it's true no matter how little a lot of people like it: there are both programmers and managers who are more excited about "new" than effective. This leads to a large group of wannabes who are constantly on the move to the latest and greatest "technology" (whether that happens to be a language, framework, platform, or whatever). They get a job, loaf (or worse, actually write some code), then move on to their next victim...er...employer. They cause a lot of "churn", and inflate the number of job advertisements, but produce little or nothing of any real value. That group moved from C++ to Java a long time ago, and have long since moved from Java to C# to Ruby on Rails to Hadoop to whatever the managers are excited about this week.
Lest I sound excessively negative, I should add that along the way, a few of them really find something they're good at, and (mostly) tend to stay with that. Unfortunately, for every one who does, there are at least five more new graduates to join the throng...
"C++ effectively relegated to embedded systems, OS, Browser"
"other special purpose development"
You mean 99% of the code people run on a daily basis?
C++ is still heavily used in many mission critical financial applications. For example, most of Bloomberg's platforms are based on C++ with very little front end in other languages. Many investment banks and hedge funds use algorithmic trading systems written completely in C++ (e.g., Tower Research Capital, Knight Capital, etc.).
If you've been out of C++ for a while, you may need to get used to a whole bunch of now-standard libraries. When I was doing most of my C++, STL was fairly new and you either adopted the Microsoft libs or did not. If I went back to C++ now, I'll have to learn all the new libraries to be effective.
I think most of the movement to other languages is related to web development and web-centric development. The main exception to that would be Google, which still primarily use C++ and Python.
C++ is still valuable for many high performance apps. There are other technologies, and depends on the situation different languages are better suited for your needs. But if you want strong performance, good control of what your code is doing, and flexible networking and programming stack, C++ is still a good choice.
A better suggestion is: let the problems come to you and find the language that best suites the situation, rather than take a language and go look for problems.
Still: if you know C++ well, you can learn/program in anything.
To this day, C++ is the only language which is both object oriented and compiled (or at least, which has a mature ecosystem of optimizing compilers). Which leaves it as the sole choice for most large scale, compute-intense projects.
To me the prominent example is games and game engines - these are huuuuuge projects that squeeze machines for milisecond-fractions. MS is trying to get some traction for XNA (a managed game-dev framework - basically a DirectX wrapper ), but most probably would never get any for AAA game productions.
If I take a look at the applications I have installed on the laptop I am writing this message on, I see a lot of C/C++ and few (if any) managed apps. Examples? Google Chrome, Firefox, iTunes, uTorrent, Spotify, Picasa, Google Earth, OpenOffice, Notepad++, IrfanView... this list goes on and on. I write desktop applications for a living, which are installed on thousands of PCs worldwide, and C++ is still my language of choice. The lack of dependencies (WTL is your friend) is a massive plus IMHO (and that of my customers I should add!.) YMMV though - as a seasoned developer I think I am productive enough in C++, but I can't speak for everybody.
It hasn't gone away if you need to do something really, really fast. If "fast enough" is OK, then C# and Java are fine, but if you have a calculation that takes hours or days, or you need something to happen on the microsecond timescale (i.e. high frequency trading) C++ is still the language to use.
More often than not, we get lost in the hype cycle. First there was Java, then came PHP, and currently is Python. But the fact of the matter is development of general purpose desktop application still requires use of libraries like Carbon/Cocoa for mac, GTK/QT for Linux, MFC for Windows. All of which are C/C++ based. So are most applications written for these platforms. So calling C++ as being relegated to embedded is not right, although yeah its being extensively used now, unlike earlier when it was just assembly or C at the max. In my opinion, if you want a high performance application with great looking GUI, it still has to be done in C/C++.
Different languages are prevalent in different domains. It is interesting that you think it might be rendered unimportant by being relegated to embedded systems when in fact that is where most software development occurs; at least in terms of number of projects/products.
There are many ways of measuring, and a number of them are presented here: http://langpop.com/. The evidence suggests that C++ remains important.
I'm not sure whether the gaming industry falls under "general purpose development", but if you want to develop anything that you intend to get working on more than a single console, C++ is what's for lunch. While many gaming and 3D libraries have extensions for other languages, they -all- have extensions for C/C++.
C++ is still used everywhere you want the best performance. Its major advantage is that you can use literally for everything. In addition to what other people have said you can also use it to power websites, for instance OkCupid uses it almost exclusively.
As the recent Hip Hop of Facebook shows, in the end, if you can afford it (ie. you have a large and competent team) you can always gains something using it. Then it also a matter of scale, other than industry.
C++ is still very popular. For instance, combined with Qt it is often used.
C++ is usually used for systems work, generally defined as software where the UI is not central, not application work -- where the UI is central. So, for general business use it's probably not very interesting and those problems are better solved with a higher level language. However, there will always be low level systems work to be done, and C or C++ is the practical answer for those problems right now.
As a general development language? Well, it depends on your industry, but I've worked in two different industries and there is always plenty of C++ work:
Telecoms
Embedded devices often use C and C++ for core services
Network equipment, often very complex, heavily utilize C++
Software apps that work with hardware will often be written in C++
Financial Services
Trade Execution systems are often in C++. You cannot have your garbage collection kick in when you're executing an order for a customer.
Algorithmic and high-frequency trading systems are usually in C++
General trading systems that do not have strict speed requirements seem to be in C++ and Java, with C# starting to show up as well.
Administrative applications tends to be written in Java, VB, or C# these days
Recently there is a trend towards functional languages for quantitative analysis, so F# and Haskell are starting to appear, and SAS and Matlab are always common too
I read somewhere that Nyse/Euronext uses Java, but that they disable the garbage collector and run on servers with insane amounts of memory.
What are the technical questions I simply must have answers for before I approach someone about introducing a new language?
I'm looking for the list of technical questions that without a really good answer, I should not even waste anyone's time by proposing that we use language X.
PS: (def X clojure)
A crash course in politics for engineers...
Despite all the mission-statement baloney meant to sound noble and emphasize community support, the real purpose of every business is return on investment or, equivalently, maximizing shareholder value. If it's a government agency, it's kind of still the same question but the legal owners will have no direct influence and instead you will have proxy owners, such as higher agencies or powerful individual officials.
Decisions, however, are almost always made by agents, and so the principal-agent problem (also called the agency dilemma) appears; the agents (the management) will make a decision in their interest, and not necessarily according to the shareholder's interest as is theoretically required. In a government agency this is almost 100% of the consideration.
Sadly, this stirs in all the Dilbert and Parkinson's Law complexities.
The best you can conclude is that decisions will be justified on the basis of risk, cost, and benefit, but will tend to be made on the basis of what credit and blame is in store for the agent and understood by the agent, which is a narrow risk consideration of questionable value to the principal but at least an identifiable one.
So, we should now apply this to the language question. Your manager is likely to avoid threats, risks, scandals, and controversies. His application of the principals's concerns will be mainly through the constraints of budgets and expectations. Here are some examples that should be mostly self-explanatory.
If you want to use Java or PHP:
Everyone is doing it this way
This is the industry-standard approach for this type of problem
This is the low-risk approach
Similar systems have been done many times in Java/PHP
(That's the "no one ever got fired for buying IBM" argument.)
If you want to use Ruby:
Ruby is in the Tiobe top-ten (not quite an industry standard, so this is the best you can do)
PHP and Java are higher-cost technologies (he probably has a budget as an attempt to mitigate the principal-agent problem)
PHP and Java are going to be out of fashion "soon" (maybe not, but phrased as a "risk of appearing to stupidly use old tech', and implying the lack of later credit and recognition)
Ruby is an advanced language with powerful abstractions for cost-effective development (a weak argument for the agent, but offers the possibility of credit. The least effective of all the arguments.)
If you want to use Clojure:
You better prototype the system on weekends and evenings and present it as a solved problem.
Emphasize parallel Java / Clojure development ("if necessary the entire system can be written in Clojure Java")
Make all the Java arguments and then say something about "the best of both worlds"
Productivity with a language is neither the only factor, nor a simple scalar in itself. Important questions include:
How easy is it to learn the language, if it's not already familiar to people on the team?
How easy is it to become expert at the language?
Does the team have access to one or more language experts who have the bandwidth to do the necessary mentoring?
Are good learning materials (books, blogs, tutorials) and support channels (fora, IRC, mailing lists) available?
Does the language (or some framework in that language) allow a competent programmer to write the software faster than what you're using now?
How maintainable is the language? How readable is the syntax to a competent programmer encountering someone else's code for the first time? (Think of APL and Perl.)
Is the language somehow better applicable to your problem domain than what you're using now (e.g., functional languages for distributed computing)?
How well does the language/platform meet business needs not related to development speed (e.g., performance, scalability)?
What are the available tools like, and what do they cost? Is there a debugger available? An IDE? Refactoring and unit test support built into the IDE? Build management and deployment tools?
So much depends on what you're currently using, what you're switching to and why that it's difficult to answer. But these are always important:
What can I do if I choose a new language that I could not do before?
What could I do faster than I can currently with the new language?
How will the rest of the team cope with the introduction of the new language?
If I left, could someone else new to the language pick up where I left off without too many problems?
What is the business case?
It comes down to ROI (Return On Investment).
It is not only about an individual's productivity but:
the whole team
impact on product lifecycle
maintainability
etc.
How easy is it to pick up? I find this is not that important.
Does it have IDE support? Pretty important, but you can work without it.
Is there a debugger available? I think this is the most important question I would ask. Once you have a working debugger, you can usually get anything done.
We hired a team this year and decided to use Clojure as our weapon of choice. The team's background was primarily Java-based but also a wide variety of other languages for hobby work.
The criteria we considered were:
Can we leverage the Java/JVM background of the team and integrate with an existing Java-based product?
Can we achieve performance on par with Java?
Can we build thread-safe concurrent maintainable programs?
Can we leverage a higher level of abstraction
Can we hire/train people to work in the language?
Can we maintain a large codebase in the language?
Are sufficient tools available to work effectively in the language?
Is there an active community of people growing the language and libs?
We seriously considered Groovy, Scala, and Clojure. I really enjoy Groovy for lightweight apps but I had serious questions about performance. Scala and Clojure both have lots to offer on all of the points above. In the end, our problem domain involves a lot of symbolic manipulation and we felt that Clojure would be a better match but I suspect Scala also would work well.
What will your new language offer that an existing language doesn't already?
We have languages that do just about everything in every way today. So before introducing a new language, make sure there isn't one already existing that does everything your new language does. And make sure you know exactly what features your new language will offer that aren't offered in the same combination or at all by other languages.
Unless of course you're just doing this for your own education - in which case forget this question and have at it!
How will this improve my productivity?
If this cannot be answered pack up and go home.
What's the point? / Why?
How will it make my job easier?
Q1: Can I hire people with these skills?
Q2: When I call our outsourcing partner account managers, and ask how much would a typical fixed-cost project cost, if done in the usual way, or done using language X, is the multiplier more than 1?
Q3: Does everyone else in my department also have a favorite language that does about the same job as my favorite language, and should their favorite languages be used as well? What are the practical consequences of this?
A good question to ask is what is the size of the community around the language/framework. For instance, ruby/rails has a significant community around it, which would make me more comfortable that I would not be "the first kid on the block" to have to deal with a particular problem.
Why limit yourself to one language? Figure out which problems are solved best by which language and offer up services. If the bandwidth between the services is too high, then migrate the problematic services together based on which language solves both best.