Difference between object and value representation by example - c++

N3797::3.9/4 [basic.types] :
The object representation of an object of type T is the sequence of N
unsigned char objects taken up by the object of type T, where N equals
sizeof(T). The value representation of an object is the set of bits
that hold the value of type T. For trivially copyable types, the value
representation is a set of bits in the object representation that
determines a value, which is one discrete element of an
implementation-defined set of values
N3797::3.9.1 [basic.fundamental] says:
For narrow character types, all bits of the object representation
participate in the value representation.
Consider the following struct:
struct A
{
char a;
int b;
}
I think for A not all bits of the object representation participate in the value representation because of padding added by implementation. But what about others fundamentals type?
The Standard says:
N3797::3.9.1 [basic.fundamental]
For narrow character types, all bits of the object representation
participate in the value representation.
These requirements do not hold for other types.
I can't imagine why it doesn't hold for say int or long. What's the reason? Could you clarify?

An example might be the Unisys mainframes, where an int has 48
bits, but only 40 participate in the value representation (and INT_MAX is 2^39-1); the
others must be 0. I imagine that any machine with a tagged
architecture would have similar issues.
EDIT:
Just some further information: the Unisys mainframes are
probably the only remaining architectures which are really
exotic: the Unisys Libra (ex-Burroughs) have a 48 bit word, use signed
magnitude for integers, and have a tagged architecture, where
the data itself contains information concerning its type. The
Unisys Dorado are the ex-Univac: 36 bit one's complement (but no
reserved bits for tagging) and 9 bit char's.
From what I understand, however, Unisys is phasing them out (or
has phased them out in the last year) in favor of Intel based
systems. Once they disappear, pretty much all systems will be
2's complement, 32 or 64 bits, and all but the IBM mainframes
will use IEEE floating poing (and IBM is moving or has moved in
that direction as well). So there won't be any motivation for
the standard to continue with special wording to support them;
in the end, in a couple of years at lesat, C/C++ could probably
follow the Java path, and impose a representation on all of its
basic data types.

This is probably meant to give the compiler headroom for optimizations on some platforms.
Consider for example a 64 bit platform where handling non-64 bit values incurs a large penalty, then it would make sense to have e.g. short only use 16 bits (value repr), but still use 64 bit storage (obj repr).
Similar rationale applies to the Fastest minimum-width integer types mandated by <stdint>. Sometimes larger types are not slower, but faster to use.

As far as I understand at least one case for this is dealing with trap representations, usually on exotic architectures. This issue is covered in N2631: Resolving the difference between C and C++ with regards to object representation of integers. It is is very long but I will quote some sections(The author is James Kanze, so if we are lucky maybe he will drop by and comment further) which says (emphasis mine).
In recent discussions in comp.lang.c++, it became clear that C and C++ have different requirements concerning the object representation of integers, and that at least one real implementation of C does not meet the C++ requirements. The purpose of this paper is to suggest wording to align the C++ standard with C.
It should be noted that the issue only concerns some fairly “exotic” hardware. In this regard, it raises a somewhat larger issue
and:
If C compatibility is desired, it seems to me that the simplest and surest way of attaining this is by incorporating the exact words from the C standard, in place of the current wording. I thus propose that we adopt the wording from the C standard, as follows
and:
Certain object representations need not represent a value of the object type. If the stored value of an object has such a representation and is read by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is undefined. If such a representation is produced by a side effect that modifies all or any part of the object by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is undefined. Such a representation is called a trap representation.
and:
For signed integer types [...] Which of these applies is implementation-defined, as is whether the value with sign bit 1 and all value bits zero (for the first two), or with sign bit and all value bits 1 (for one's complement), is a trap representation or a normal value. In the case of sign and magnitude and one's complement, if this representation is a normal value it is called a negative zero.

Related

Type conversions without loss of precision

I've just recently noticed some of the code in the framework I am working with converts certain variables to doubles and then back when they are accessed by the framework. In the C++11 standard, is this guaranteed to work without loss of precision for any integral types? If so, which? Are there any additional types that are universally safe for this kind of conversion in common implementations?
Also, is there any way to check at compile time that a conversion is safe in this way? Essentially I would like something like:
static_assert(T(double(T type))==type);
T(double(T_value))==T_value is guaranteed when the range of integral type T is a subrange of the range of exact integral values of type double.
Since no implementation of double has 16 bits or less for the mantissa, and since as far as I know there's no extant C++ implementation with more than 16 bits per byte (the CHAR_BIT constant from <limits.h>), this guarantee holds for char and and the explicitly signed and unsigned variants.
Typically a double has some 50+ bits mantissa, and that's enough for the guarantee to hold also for 32-bit integral types, but not for 64-bit.
Well, I (mostly) figured out the second part of my question:
#include <limits>
static_assert(T(double(std::numeric_limits<T>::max()))==std::numeric_limits::max(),"ERROR MESSAGE.");

In C++, what happens when I use static_cast<char> on an integer value outside -128,127 range?

In a code compiled on i386 Linux using g++, I have used static_cast<char>() cast on a value that might exceed the valid range of -128,127 for a char. There were no errors or exceptions and so I used the code in production.
The problem is now I don't know how this code might behave when a value outside this range is thrown at it. There is no problem if data is modified or truncated, I only need to know how this modification behaves on this particular platform.
Also what would happen if C-style cast ((char)value) had been used? would it behave differently?
In your case this would be an explicit type conversion. Or to be more precise an integral conversions.
The standard says about this(4.7):
If the destination type is signed, the value is unchanged if it can be represented in the destination type (and
bit-field width); otherwise, the value is implementation-defined.
So your problem is implementation-defined. On the other hand I have not yet seen a compiler that does not just truncate the larger value to the smaller one. And I have never seen any compiler that uses the rule mentioned above.
So it should be fairly safe to just cast your integer/short to the char.
I don't know the rules for an C cast by heart and I really try to avoid them because it is not easy to say which rule will kick in.
This is dealt with in §4.7 of the standard (integral conversions).
The answer depends on whether in the implementation in question char is signed or unsigned. If it is unsigned, then modulo arithmetic is applied. §4.7/2 of C++11 states: "If the destination type is unsigned, the resulting value is the least unsigned integer congruent to the source integer (modulo 2 n where n is the number of bits used to represent the unsigned type)." This means that if the input integer is not negative, the normal bit truncation you expect will arise. If is is negative, the same will apply if negative numbers are represented by 2's complement, otherwise the conversion will be bit altering.
If char is signed, §4.7/3 of C++11 applies: "If the destination type is signed, the value is unchanged if it can be represented in the destination type (and bit-field width); otherwise, the value is implementation-defined." So it is up to the documentation for the particular implementation you use. Having said that, on 2's complement systems (ie all those in normal use) I have not seen a case where anything other than normal bit truncation occurs for char types: apart from anything else, by virtue of §3.9.1/1 of the c++11 standard all character types (char, unsigned char and signed char) must have the same object representation and alignment.
The effect of a C style case, an explicit static_cast and an implicit narrowing conversion is the same.
Technically the language specs for unsigned types agree in inposing a plain base-2. And for unsigned plain base-2 its pretty obvious what extension and truncation do.
When going to unsigned, however, the specs are more "tolerant" allowing potentially different kind of processor to use different ways to represent signed numbers. And since a same number may have in different platform different representations is practically not possible to provide a description on what happen to it when adding or removing bits.
For this reason, language specification remain more vague by saying that "the value is unchanged if it can be represented in the destination type (and bit-field width); otherwise, the value is implementation-defined"
In other words, compiler manufacturer are required to do the best as they can to keep the numeric value. But when this cannot be done, they are free to adapt to what is more efficient for them.

reinterpret_cast between ponter and different size intgeral type

What actually happens when we do the following:
1)
int i = -1; // 32 bit
void *p;
p = reinterpret_cast<void*>(i)
on 64 bit architecture, sizeof(void*) == 8
2)
long long i; // 64 bit
void *p = (unsigned int)(-1);
i = retinterpret_cast<long long>(p)
on 32 bit architecture sizeof(void*) = 4
I generally understand what will be the result, but I want somebody to describe the mechanism in terms of the C++ standard for better understanding.
In the second case the behaviour is like those described in "integral promotions"(4.5) (i will be -1)
for the case "int - unsigned long", so do we generally say that pointers are converted like signed integers?
3)
int i = ...;
unsigned long long L = ...;
i = L;
What rules apply here?
All conversions between pointers and integral types are
implementation defined. The only guarantee the standard makes
is that:
A value of integral type or enumeration type can be explicitly
converted to a pointer. A pointer converted to an integer of
sufficient size (if any such exists on the implementation) and
back to the same pointer type will have its original value
The standard does, however, make the statement (in
a non-normative note) that:
It is intended to be unsurprising to those who know the
addressing structure of the underlying machine.
From a quality of implementation point of view, if the machine
has linear addressing, casting an int to a pointer should
result in a value that corresponds to the value of the int, if
the word (whatever its size) is viewed as an integral type; in
other words, the bit pattern isn't changed. If the integral
type is smaller, and is negative, it is an open question whether
it should be sign extended, or whether the remaining bits should
be set to 0. I prefer the second, but I think that both can be
considered "unsurprising".
From a pragmatic point of view: there's a significant amount of
software out there which will occasionally cast a small
non-negative integral value to void*, and expects to get it
back with a cast later. Formally, getting it back requires
converting first to a intptr_t (or larger); otherwise the code
shouldn't compile. But I can't imagine a compiler breaking this
otherwise. For negative values, on the other hand, I'd feel
significantly less sure. And I'm not sure how small is small,
either. (I currently use the technique in one special case for
values less than some 40 or 50. I works with MSC, g++ and Sun
CC, at least, and I can't imagine it failing on any of the other
mainstream Unix machines I've used in the past. But I wouldn't
count on it on a 16 bit Intel, or some of the other more exotic
machines I've seen, and certainly not on an embedded system.)
Finally, as for your exact questions: it could vary. I'd try it
and see, counting on the fact that whatever it does, there's
some code somewhere which counts on it doing that, and that the
vendor won't risk changing the behavior. Formally, since it is
implementation defined, the implementor is required to document
it (and could, of course, change it in the next version), but
I've generally found it very, very difficult to find this
documentation.
EDIT:
I just noticed that your final question concerned unsigned long
long to int. This is an integral conversion, and not
a reinterpret_cast, so different rules apply. Or rather, the
rules are specified in a different section: the basic rule is
still "implementation defined":
If the destination type is signed, the value is unchanged if it
can be represented in the destination type (and bit-field
width); otherwise, the value is implementation-defined.
The C standard is somewhat different here, in that it explicitly
allows an implementation defined signal to be raised. (It's
stretching it somewhat to say that the "value" in the C++
standard could be the raising of a signal, even if this would be
the preferred implementation.) In practice: all of the
compilers I know just ignore the extra high order bits.
The behavior is Undefined. Anything may happen. It's not even guaranteed that the result is consistent. reinterpret_cast<void*>(1) == reinterpret_cast<void*>(1) may be false.

What does 'Natural Size' really mean in C++?

I understand that the 'natural size' is the width of integer that is processed most efficiently by a particular hardware. When using short in an array or in arithmetic operations, the short integer must first be converted into int.
Q: What exactly determines this 'natural size'?
I am not looking for simple answers such as
If it has a 32-bit architecture, it's natural size is 32-bit
I want to understand why this is most efficient, and why a short must be converted before doing arithmetic operations on it.
Bonus Q: What happens when arithmetic operations are conducted on a long integer?
Generally speaking, each computer architecture is designed such that certain type sizes provide the most efficient numerical operations. The specific size then depends on the architecture, and the compiler will select an appropriate size. More detailed explanations as to why hardware designers selected certain sizes for perticular hardware would be out of scope for stckoverflow.
A short most be promoted to int before performing integral operations because that's the way it was in C, and C++ inherited that behavior with little or no reason to change it, possibly breaking existing code. I'm not sure the reason it was originally added in C, but one could speculate that it's related to "default int" where if no type were specified int was assumed by the compiler.
Bonus A: from 5/9 (expressions) we learn: Many binary operators that expect operands of arithmetic or enumeration type cause conversions and yield result types in a similar way. The purpose is to yield a common type, which is also the type of the result. This pattern is called the usual arithmetic conversions, which are defined as follows:
And then of interest specifically:
floating point rules that don't matter here
Otherwise, the integral promotions (4.5) shall be performed on both operands
Then, if either operand is unsigned long the other shall be converted to unsigned long.
Otherwise, if one operand is a long int and the other unsigned int, then if a long int can represent
all the values of an unsigned int, the unsigned int shall be converted to a long int;
otherwise both operands shall be converted to unsigned long int.
Otherwise, if either operand is long, the other shall be converted to long.
In summary the compiler tries to use the "best" type it can to do binary operations, with int being the smallest size used.
the 'natural size' is the width of integer that is processed most efficiently by a particular hardware.
Not really. Consider the x64 architecture. Arithmetic on any size from 8 to 64 bits will be essentially the same speed. So why have all x64 compilers settled on a 32-bit int? Well, because there was a lot of code out there which was originally written for 32-bit processors, and a lot of it implicitly relied on ints being 32-bits. And given the near-uselessness of a type which can represent values up to nine quintillion, the extra four bytes per integer would have been virtually unused. So we've decided that 32-bit ints are "natural" for this 64-bit platform.
Compare the 80286 architecture. Only 16 bits in a register. Performing 32-bit integer addition on such a platform basically requires splitting it into two 16-bit additions. Doing virtually anything with it involves splitting it up, really-- and an attendant slowdown. The 80286's "natural integer size" is most definitely not 32 bits.
So really, "natural" comes down to considerations like processing efficiency, memory usage, and programmer-friendliness. It is not an acid test. It is very much a matter of subjective judgment on the part of the architecture/compiler designer.
What exactly determines this 'natural size'?
For some processors (e.g. 32-bit ARM, and most DSP-style processors), it's determined by the architecture; the processor registers are a particular size, and arithmetic can only be done on values of that size.
Others (e.g. Intel x64) are more flexible, and there's no single "natural" size; it's up to the compiler designers to choose a size, a compromise between efficiency, range of values, and memory usage.
why this is most efficient
If the processor requires values to be a particular size for arithmetic, then choosing another size will force you to convert the values to the required size - probably for a cost.
why a short must be converted before doing arithmetic operations on it
Presumably, that was a good match for the behaviour of commonly-used processors when C was developed, half a century ago. C++ inherited the promotion rules from C. I can't really comment on exactly why it was deemed a good idea, since I wasn't born then.
What happens when arithmetic operations are conducted on a long integer?
If the processor registers are large enough to hold a long, then the arithmetic will be much the same as for int. Otherwise, the operations will have to be broken down into several operations on values split between multiple registers.
I understand that the 'natural size' is the width of integer that is processed most efficiently by a particular hardware.
That's an excellent start.
Q: What exactly determines this 'natural size'?
The paragraph above is the definition of "natural size". Nothing else determines it.
I want to understand why this is most efficient
By definition.
and why a short must be converted before doing arithmetic operations on it.
It is so because the C language definitions says so. There are no deep architectural reasons (there could have been some when C was invented).
Bonus Q: What happens when arithmetic operations are conducted on a long integer?
A bunch of electrons rushes through dirty sand and meets a bunch of holes. (No, really. Ask a vague question...)

What do the C and C++ standards say about bit-level integer representation and manipulation?

I know the C and C++ standards don't dictate a particular representation for numbers (could be two's complement, sign-and-magnitude, etc.). But I don't know the standards well enough (and couldn't find if it's stated) to know if there are any particular restrictions/guarantees/reserved representations made when working with bits. Particularly:
If all the bits in an integer type are zero, does the integer as whole represent zero?
If any bit in an integer type is one, does the integer as a whole represent non-zero? (if this is a "yes" then some representations like sign-and-magnitude would be additionally restricted)
Is there a guaranteed way to check if any bit is not set?
Is there a guaranteed way to check if any bit is set? (#3 and #4 kind of depend on #1 and #2, because I know how to set, for example the 5th bit (see #5) in some variable x, and I'd like to check a variable y to see if it's 5th bit is 1, I would like to know if if (x & y) will work (because as I understand, this relies on the value of the representation and not whether nor not that bit is actually 1 or 0))
Is there a guaranteed way to set the left-most and/or right-most bits? (At least a simpler way than taking a char c with all bits true (set by c = c | ~c) and doing c = c << (CHAR_BIT - 1) for setting the high-bit and c = c ^ (c << 1) for the low-bit, assuming I'm not making any assumptions I should't be, given these questions)
If the answer to #1 is "no" how could one iterate over the bits in an integer type and check if each one was a 1 or a 0?
I guess my overall question is: are there any restrictions/guarantees/reserved representations made by the C and C++ standards regarding bits and integers, despite the fact that an integer's representation is not mandated (and if the C and C++ standards differ in this regard, what's their difference)?
I came up with these questions while doing my homework which required me to do some bit manipulating (note these aren't questions from my homework, these are much more "abstract").
Edit: As to what I refer to as "bits," I mean "value forming" bits and am not including "padding" bits.
(1) If all the bits in an integer type are zero, does the integer as whole represent zero?
Yes, the bit pattern consisting of all zeroes always represents 0:
The representations of integral types shall define values by use of a pure binary numeration system.49 [§3.9.1/7]
49 A positional representation for integers that uses the binary digits 0 and 1, in which the values represented by successive bits are additive, begin with 1, and are multiplied by successive integral power of 2, except perhaps for the bit with the highest position.
(2) If any bit in an integer type is one, does the integer as a whole represent non-zero? (if this is a "yes" then some representations like sign-and-magnitude would be additionally restricted)
No. In fact, signed magnitude is specifically allowed:
[ Example: this International Standard permits 2’s complement, 1’s complement and signed magnitude representations for integral types. —end
example ] [§3.9.1/7]
(3) Is there a guaranteed way to check if any bit is not set?
I believe the answer to this is "no," if you consider signed types. It is equivalent to equality testing with a bit pattern of all ones, which is only possible if you have a way to produce a signed number with bit pattern of all ones. For an unsigned number this representation is guaranteed, but casting from unsigned to signed is undefined if the number is unrepresentable:
If the destination type is signed, the value is unchanged if it can be represented in the destination type (and bit-field width); otherwise, the value is implementation-defined. [§4.7/3]
(4) Is there a guaranteed way to check if any bit is set?
I don't think so, because signed magnitude is allowed—0 would compare equal to −0. But it should be possible with unsigned numbers.
(5) Is there a guaranteed way to set the left-most and/or right-most bits?
Again, I believe the answer is "yes" for unsigned numbers, but "no" for signed numbers. Shifts are undefined for negative signed numbers:
Otherwise, if E1 has a signed type and non-negative value, and E1 × 2E2 is representable in the result type, then that is the resulting value; otherwise, the behavior is undefined. [§5.8/2]
You use the term "all bits" repeatedly, but you do not clarify what "all bits" you are referring to. Object representation of integer types in C/C++ might include value-forming bits and padding bits. The only integer type that is guaranteed not to have padding bits is [signed/unsigned] char.
The language always guaranteed that if all value-forming bits are zero, then the represented integer value is also zero.
As for padding bits, things are/were a bit more complicated. The original specification of C language (C89/90 as well as the original C99) did not guarantee that setting all object bits to zero produced a valid integer representation. It could've produced an invalid trap representation. I.e. in the original C (and even in C99 at first) using memset(..., 0, ...) on integer types did not guarantee that the objects will receive valid zero values (with the exception of [signed/unsigned] char). This was changed in later specifications, namely in one of the technical corrigendums for C99. Now it is required that all-zero bit pattern in an integer object (that involves all bits, including padding ones) represents a valid zero value.
I.e. in modern C it is legal to use memset(..., 0, ...) to set any integer objects to zero, but it became legal only after C99.
You already got some answers about the representation of integer values. There is exactly one way that is guaranteed to give you all the individual bits of any object that is represented in memory: view it as array of unsigned char. This is the only integral type that has no padding bits and is guaranteed to have no trap representation. So casting a pointer of type T* to your object to unsigned char* will always work, as long as you only access the first sizeof(T) bytes. By that you could inspect and set all bytes (and thus bits) to your liking.
If you are interested in more details, here I have written something up about the anatomy of integer types in C. C++ might differ a bit from that, in particular type puning through union as described there doesn't seem to be well defined in C++.
Q: If any bit in an integer type is one, does the integer as a whole represent non-zero? (if this is a "yes" then some representations like sign-and-magnitude would be additionally restricted)
No. The standards for C and C++ don't rule out signed magnitude or one's complement, both of which have +0 and -0. While +0 and -0 do have to compare equal, but they do not have to have the same representation.
Good luck finding a machine nowadays that uses signed magnitude or one's complement.
If you want your brain to explode, consider this: If you interpret an int or long or long long as an array of unsigned char (which is the most reasonable thing to do if you want to see all the bits), you know that the order of bytes is not defined, for example "bigendian" vs. "littleendian". We all (hopefully) know that.
But it is worse: Each bit of an int could be stored in any of the bits of the array of char. So there are 32! ways how the bits of a 32 bit integer could be mapped to an array of four 8-bit unsigned chars by a truly bizarre implementation. Fortunately, I haven't encountered more than two ways myself (and I know of one more ordering in a real computer).
If all the bits in an integer type are zero, does the integer as whole represent zero?
Edit: since you have now clarified that you are not concerned with the padding bits, the answer to this is actually "yes". But I leave the original:
Not necessarily, it could be a trap representation. See C99 6.2.6.1:
For unsigned integer types other than unsigned char, the bits of the object
representation shall be divided into two groups: value bits and padding bits (there need not be any of the latter)
The presence of padding bits allows for the possibility that all 0 is a trap representation. (As noted by Keith Thompson in the comment below, the more recent C11 makes explicit that such a representation is not a trap representation).
and
The values of any padding bits are unspecified
and
44) Some combinations of padding bits might generate trap representations
If you restrict the question to value and sign bits, the answer is yes, due to 6.2.6.2:
If there are N value bits, each bit shall represent a different
power of 2 between 1 and 2 N −1 , so that objects of that type shall be capable of representing values from 0 to 2 N − 1 using a pure binary representation; this shall be known as the value representation.
and
If the sign bit is zero, it shall not affect the resulting value.
If any bit in an integer type is one, does the integer as a whole represent non-zero? (if this is a "yes" then some representations like sign-and-magnitude would be additionally restricted)
Not necessarily, and in fact sign-and-magnitude is explicitly supported in 6.2.6.2.
Is there a guaranteed way to check if any bit is not set?
If you do not care about padding and sign bits, you could just compare to 0, but this would not work with a 1's complement representation (which is allowed) seeing as all bits 0 and all bits 1 both represent the value 0.
Otherwise: you can read the value of each byte via an unsigned char *, and compare the result to 0:
Values stored in unsigned bit-fields and objects of type unsigned char
shall be represented using a pure binary notation
If you want to check a specific value bit, you could construct a suitable bitmask using (1u << n), but this will not necessarily let you inspect the sign bit.
Is there a guaranteed way to check if any bit is set?
The answer is essentially the same as to the previous question.
Is there a guaranteed way to set the left-most and/or right-most bits?
Do you mean left-most value bit? You could count the bits in INT_MAX or UINT_MAX or equivalent depending on the type, and use that to construct a value (via 1 << n) with which to OR the original value.
If the answer to #1 is "no" how could one iterate over the bits in an integer type and check if each one was a 1 or a 0?
You can do so using a bitmask which you left shift repeatedly, but you can check only the value bits this way and not the sign bit.
For the bitmanipulations you could make a struct with 8 one unsigned bit fields and let the pointer of that struct point to your char. In that way you can easily access each bit. But the compiler will probably do masking under the hood, so it is only a cleaner way for the programmer I think. You must check that your compiler doesn't change the order of the fields when doing this.
yourstruct* pChar=(yourstruct*)(&c)
pChar.Bit7=1;
Let me caveat this by saying I'm addressing C and C++ in general (e.g. C90 and lower, MS Visual C++, etc): the "greatest common denominator" (vs. the latest/greatest cx11 "standard").
Q: If all the bits in an integer type are zero, does the integer as whole represent zero?
A: Yes
Q: If any bit in an integer type is one, does the integer as a whole represent non-zero? (if this is a "yes" then some representations like sign-and-magnitude would be additionally restricted)
A: Yes. This includes the sign bit, for a signed int.
I'm frankly not familiar with "magnitude"
Q: Is there a guaranteed way to check if any bit is not set?
A: "And'ing" a bitmask is always guaranteed.
Q: Is there a guaranteed way to check if any bit is set?
A: Again, "and'ing" a bitmask is always guaranteed.
Q: Is there a guaranteed way to set the left-most and/or right-most bits?
A: I believe you should always have a "MAX_INT" available for all implementations/all architectures to determine the leftmost bit.
I'm prepared to be flamed ... but I believe the above is accurate. And I hope it helps.
IMHO...