We have an application with 10 millions lines of code in 4GL(Progress) and a database also OpenEdge with 300 Tables. My Boss says we should migrate it to a new Programming language and a new Database Management system.
My questions are:
Do you think we should migrate it? Do you think Progress has a "future"?
If we should migrate it, how, are there any tools? Or should we begin with programming from scratch?
Thank you for the help.
Ablo
Unless your boss has access to an unlimited budget, endless user patience and a thirst for frustration and agony you should not waste any time thinking about rewrites.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
Yes, Progress has a future. They probably will never be as sexy an option as Microsoft or Oracle or whatever the cool kids are using this week. But they have been around for 30 years and they will still be here when you and your boss retire.
There are those who will rain down scorn on Progress because it isn't X or it doesn't have Y. Maybe they can rewrite your 10 million lines of code next weekend and prove just how right they are. I would not, however, pay them for those efforts until after the user acceptance tests are passed and the implementation is completed.
A couple of years later (the original post being from 2014 and the answers being from 2014 to 2015) :
The post, which has gotten the most votes is argumenting basically two fold :
a. Progress (Openedge) has been around for a long time and is not going anywhere soon
b. Unless your boss has access to an unlimited budget, endless user patience and a thirst for frustration and agony you should not waste any time thinking about rewrites: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
With regard to a:
Yes, the Progress OpenEdge Stack is still around. But from my experience the difficulty to find experienced and skilled Openedge has gotten even more difficult.
But also an important factor here, which i think has evolved to much greater importance, since this discussion started:
The available Open Source Stacks for application development have gotten by factors better, both in terms of out-of-box functionality and quality and have decisively moved in direction of RAD.
I am thinking for instance of Spring Boot, but not only, see https://stackshare.io/spring-boot/alternatives. In the Java realm Spring Boot is certainly unique. Also for the development of rich Webui's many very valid options have emerged, which certainly are addressing RAD requirements, just some "arbitrary" examples https://vaadin.com for Java, but also https://www.polymer-project.org for Javascript, which are interestingly converging both with https://vaadin.com/flow.
Many of the available stacks are still evolving strongly, but all have making life easier for the developer as strong driver. Also in terms of architectures you will find a convergence of many of this stacks with regard basic building blocks and principles: Separation of Interfaces from Implementation, REST API's for remote communication, Object Relational Mapping Technologies, NoSql / Json approaches etc etc.
So yes the Open Source Stack are getting very efficient in terms of Development. And what must also be mentioned, that the scope of these stacks do not stop with development: Deployment, Operational Aspects and naturally also Testing are a strong ,which in the end also make the developers life easier.
Generally one can say the a well choosen Mix and Match of Open Source Stacks have a very strong value proposition, also on the background of RAD requirements, which a proprietary Stack, will have in the long run difficulty to match - at least from my point of view.
With regard to b:
Interestingly enough i was just recently with a customer, who is looking to do exactly this: rewrite their application. The irony: they are migrating from Progress to Progress OpenEdge, with several additional Open Edge compliant Tools. The reason two fold: Their code is getting very difficult to maintain and would refactoring in order to address requirements coming from Web Frontends. Also interesting, they are not finding enough qualified developers.
Basically: Code is sound and lives , when it can be refactored and when it can evolve with new requirements. Unfortunately there many examples - at least from my experience - to contrary.
Additionally End-of-Lifecyle of Software can force a company, to "rewrite" at least layers of their software. And this doesn't necessarily have to bad and impossible. I worked on a Project, which migrated over 300 Oracle Forms forms to a Java based UI within less then two years. This migration from a 2 tier to a 3 tier architecture actually positioned the company to evolve their architecture to address the needs of Web Ui's. So actually in the end this "rewrite" and a strong return of value also from the business perspective.
So to cut a (very;-)) long story short:
One way or another, it is easy to go wrong with generalizations.
You need not begin programming from scratch. There is help available online and yes, you can contact Progress Technical Support if you find difficulties. Generally, ABL code from previous version should work with only little changes. Here are few things that you need to do in order to migrate your application:
Backup databases
Backup source code and .r files
Truncate DB bi files
Convert your databases
Recompile ABL code and test
http://knowledgebase.progress.com articles will help you in this. If you are migrating from some older versions like 9, you can find a good set of new features. You can try them but only after you are done with your conversion.
If you are migrating from 32-bit to 64-bit and if you are using 32-bit libraries, you need to replace them with 64-bit
The first question I'd come back with is 'why'? If the application is not measuring up that's one thing, and the question needs to be looked at from that perspective.
If the perception is that Progress is somehow a "lesser" application development and operating environment, and the desire is only to move to a different development and operating environment - you'll end up with a lot of resources in time, effort, and money invested - not to mention the opportunity cost - and for what? To run on a different database platform? Will migrating result in a lower TCO? Faster development turn-around time? Quicker time to market? What's expected advantage in moving from Progress, and how long will it take to recover the migration cost - if ever?
Somewhere out there is a company who had similar thoughts and tried to move off of Progress and the ABL. The effort failed to meet their target performance and functionality metrics, so they eventually gave up on the migration, threw in the towel, and stayed with Progress - after spending $25M on the project.
Can your company afford that kind of risk / reward ratio?
Progress (Openedge) has been around for a long time and is not going anywhere soon. And rewriting 10 Million lines of code in any language just to use the current flavor of the month would never be worth it unless your current application is not doing what you need. Even then bringing it up to current needs would normally be a better solution.
If you need to migrate your current application to the latest version of Openedge (Progress) you would normally just make a copy of your database(s) and convert it/them to the new version of Openedge and compile your your code against the new databases and shake the bugs out. You may have some keyword issues, but this is usually pretty minor.
If you need help with programming I would suggest contacting Progress Software and attending the yearly trade show or going to https://community.progress.com/ and asking/looking for local user groups. The local user groups would be a stellar place to find local programming talent.
Hope this helps.....
Related
Suppose for an application which will never receive internet connection during its lifetime, how can you prevent the piracy of the software?
There cannot be a single product key requirement during installation because, once installed legitimately anybody can copy the installation and re-distribute it.
So every time the application runs it should check for something and crash if the check fails.
Now what could it possibly check?
Initially I thought keeping an encrypted binary file will do the job, but as answered here, that seems a negligible prevention.
Any hacker can modify the executable so that instead of crashing when the check fails it should continue running.
So no matter how difficult the check is, the cracked application will always run.
Now I cannot see any possible solution to this problem.
PS: I am a single independent developer who is developing productivity software with very low charge. Seeing this question I believe I just have to let it go. Sigh....
EDIT: I would like to thank all the contributors in this discussion in letting me know the grim reality...
What I understand now is that you are indirectly submitting the source code of your application in the form of the target executable. Its source code can be modified by anybody using a debugger, thus ANY method of preventing piracy through source code of your application is useless. The only possible solution to this problem is to keep your legitimate customers happy by providing them services (apart from the software) and keep your price below their expectations.
I was think of solving this problem for past 3 days and now all seems worthwhile but still learnt a lot in this process, which I wouldn't have otherwise...
I ha
The only standalone thing I've seen that is semi-effective is hardware keys that come with the boxed software. They used to attach to a parallel port or a serial port and get checked when you started the program.
AutoCad and similar programs used to do this, but it is a BIG PAIN for your customers. Any time it doesn't read it, or a key goes bad, customer productivity suffers. It hurts your legitimate customers far more than those who end up pirating it anyway, and a sufficiently motivated pirate can make a VM that will overcome this. Modern versions of this use USB.
My recommendation is to trust people. Upon install, make them click a "I promise I paid for this" button and be done with it. If they click "I didn't pay for this" show them a small paragraph about how to help keep good software coming and prevent customer-harming DRM schemes by simply contributing to the success of good software authors.
You could generate a unique copy for each user, create a database, and check it agents copies you find online if you like playing the biggest game of wack-a-mole ever.
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Is It possible to perform a system analysis and design for a Website ( particularly a social Network ) ?
What are the Expected contents will be , In the document ?
can u provide an example , please ?
{ I made a social network (www.sy-stu.com) as to be my graduation project and I want to add a full analysis study to the graduation document , I do have experience in UML and Usecases just the Idea of an analysis of a website is not clear and never perform one before }
thanx in advance
This sounds very ambitious, but I'm sure it's possible. Unfortunately, I've forgotten a bit of System Analysis, but do adhere to many of its guiding principles for my own projects. In fact, I would say that most data-driven Web sites are excellent candidates for Systems Analysis and should be used always during Web planning for any project you plan on putting into production.
Straight from the wiki:
The development of a feasibility
study, involving determining whether
a project is economically, socially,
technologically and organizationally
feasible.
Conducting fact-finding
measures, designed to ascertain the
requirements of the system's
end-users. These typically span
interviews, questionnaires, or
visual observations of work on the
existing system.
Gauging how the
end-users would operate the system
(in terms of general experience in
using computer hardware or
software), what the system would be
used for etc.
For the first point, I would analyze different technologies such as ASP.NET, Ruby on Rails and PHP. Each technology has its strengths and weaknesses. One key thing to keep in mind is if you plan on making your social network free, you may consider open source technologies over proprietary - as many servers and application frameworks for proprietary projects are costly. I would also consider Web startup and hosting fees. If you plan on getting a reseller account with Host Gator, then you would need to factor in monthly billing costs. If you plan to host your own servers, you may be amazed at the cost of doing so. For a truly stable system, you would need to put a lot of work and cash into managing your own Web servers.
For the second point, you could probably locate plenty of information on user requirements from similar sites - just check out forums for DIY social networks and see what people are having issues with in the Technical Support section. Obviously, looking into technology based articles and magazines would be a good place to search on end user expectations - or even just joining Facebook and Twitter - see what they are doing since people seem content.
For the third point, again you can consult your competition and see how the user interface works out. Is it easy to use? Is it difficult in some aspects? If you had to use their system for 8 hours a day at least 5 days a week, what would drive you mad and how would you do it better? And keep in mind logical work flow as well. Knowing your user base is important too. In some systems, you may be developing for other programmers. Using strong jargon may be fine, but for a social network you must remember that they aren't familiar with Web site data flow and terminology. So your controls should still make sense to a computer novice and still work securely (don't forget system security too!) and in an organized fashion.
Finally, remember that things happen. I recently created a back-end site for a client of mine. I though the system worked very well - and they were very pleased, but I just got an email today that they want the way order items are stored to work differently. This is why there's a maintenance aspect to the System Development Life Cycle - things change after you finish deploying. It could also be said that if I had communicated with my client's needs more closely, this could have been resolved. Fortunately, the change is relatively minor, and we do live in a real world where things don't always work as we expect. We just do our best :)
As I said earlier, Systems Analysis is a lot of work and should be. The point of it is to determine that what you are trying to accomplish is feasible and practical without committing to a long term project that could span years. And always remember that no plan is perfect. If there were perfect plans, we wouldn't need new systems :).
My company is at the very end of development process of some (awesome:)) web application. This app will be available as a online service for (hopefully) some significant number of users. This is our biggest django release so far and as we are preparing to release some question about deployment have to be answered.
Q1: how to determine required server parameters for predicted X number of users/Y hits per minute or other factor?
Q2: what hosting solution (shared/vps/dedicated) is worth considering?
Q3: what optimizations can be done at a first place?
I know that this is very subjective and dependent of size of a site, code quality and other factors but I'm very interested in your experiences with django (and not only django) deployment. Any hints, links, advices are kindly welcome. Thanks in advance.
What hosting solution you want to have depends also on how much you want to take of your server yourself (from upgrades etc to backup...), and you should decide if you want to have the responsibility or leave it to someone else.
I think you can only really determine the necessary requirements and bottlenecks in your applications through testing with the estimated load! Try to simulate as many requests.... as you expect - think about caching (where memcached is the best option you have)! If you try to cache things one great tool is the django debug toolbar (http://github.com/robhudson/django-debug-toolbar) which can show you also much about how many database hits you have (dont take the times it shows for that for granted, but analyse them and keep an eye on the number of hits) and eg. how many templates are rendered....
If your system grows, you can first of all think about serving your static media files from another location! Coming to the web server I have made great experiences using lighttpd instead of the fat apache, but I guess you have to evaluate that for yourself!
Also take in consideration what database backend to use, in shared envionments there's in most cases a bigger load on the mysql than on the postgres servers, but also evaluate what works best for you!
You can get some guesses here, but to get a halfway reasonable performance estimate you have to measure the performance of your application yourself. You should then be able to roughly extrapolate the performance on different hardware.
Most of the time the bottleneck is the database, you should get enough RAM to keep it in memory if possible.
"Web application" can encompass so many different things, we can really do no more than guess here.
As for optimization, if it fits to your needs implement some caching (e.g. with memchached), that can give you huge speed improvements.
I've recently used Django for a very small CMS-style website. I was so impressed with how quick and easy it was to develop a Django project, that I'm now considering using it for a significantly larger project.
However, before I get excited about the idea, I just wanted to run it by someone who actually has developed a very large Django website (with many features, and high traffic).
Baring in mind that recently I have used mostly C# Asp.Net - Are there any pitfalls I should know about?
As mentioned, it really depends on what "large" and "complex" actually mean. If you're planning on building another eBay, the answer is "probably not".
This question is asked a lot. Frankly, there are plenty of answers out there. This thread is pretty good. There was also a very well attended presentation at DjangoCon this year on Scaling Django. It's up to you to architect your site so that it scales, regardless of what technology you use.
My answer would be: If your site is going to outgrow Django (or any other framework, for that matter), it's huge success and you'll probably have enough capital to hire a gigantic team to rewrite the entire thing.
It's going to depend a lot on exactly what you mean by "large" and "complex".
As far as "complex", take a look at Pinax. Tons of features all built out of simple Django apps hooked together and it's still considered a framework that you would use as a start towards building a social software site. But I'm sure you can still come up with some version of "complex" that doesn't mesh well with Django's architecture.
Handling large amounts of traffic and large datasets is a different matter. Ultimately, if you get large enough, Django's not going to handle it. But really, neither will any framework. Jacob-Kaplan Moss (one of the django devs) has a great article outlining the history of web development that led up to where Django is. He makes a pretty strong case for why Django or any other framework can't excel at both rapid development and massive scalability but why it's still worth starting with one. Basically, no two high traffic sites are going to have the same scalability issues: they will all need a custom approach that's specific to the exact type of data and traffic they have to deal with. But since it's hard to predict exactly where those bottlenecks are going to be, it's a good idea to start with a rapid development framework and start replacing components when you encounter the need.
I found this quite interesting to read: http://softwaremaniacs.org/blog/2008/02/24/why-offline-crashed-en/
There are a lot of interesting articles in this blog, but, unfortunately, they're all in Russian.
Added: And since that post Ivan did write MySQL backend supporting master-slave replication: http://softwaremaniacs.org/soft/mysql_replicated/en/
I am assessing some tools to manage software develpment projects. Dotproject seems a good one, but i would like to learn of other's experinces using it for software development.
Thanks.
I've been using Assembla for a small team and loving it. The web interface is very elegant, and it gives me power and simplicity at the same time.
My favorite feature is the strong ticketing system which allows me to create tickets on the web, assign them to developers, associate them with other tickets, estimate the time it takes to close the ticket, and aggregate those times graphically. It really shines, though, with its version control and ticket integration. Being able to specify that this commit is related to ticket #45, fixes bug #78, and closes ticket #32 is very nice.
They offer version control hosting for multiple version control systems - including SVN and GIT.
They offer free and paid packages.
For more information, check out their usage videos here.
Oh, and do let us know what you decide and why :)
An old post, I know...
I used to be a core member of the dotproject team and used it for years and set up many organizations on it... ranging from small non-profits and software shops to major government projects. It tended to work relatively well. Unfortunately, due to the crawl of development, half the dotproject team split to form web2project and we've been there almost two years.
At present, we (web2project) does a quarterly release and have done major work on the code. We've closed ~100+ bugs, added dozens of features like iCal feeds, and improved performance by 95% and cut about 1/3 of the code overall. And yes, we have an upgrade path from dotProject.