I've asked the question before what language should I learn for embedded development. Most embedded engineers said c and c++ are a must, but also pointed out that it depends on the chip.
Can someone clarify? Is it a compiler issue or what? Do chips come with their own specific compilers (like a c compiler or c++ compiler) and that's why you have to use the language the compiler knows? Is it not possible to code and compile it elsewhere, then burn it to the chip directly in its compiled state? (I think I heard an acquaintance say something to this effect)
I'm not sure how this works, as clearly I don't know much embedded systems or how they work. It's probably an easy answer for those of you who know.
Probably, they meant some toolchains do not support C++. Yes, many chips and boards do come with their own toolchains. Different processors have different instruction sets, which means a different compiler (or more specifically a different backend). That doesn't mean you always have to relearn everything. Many of these are based on GCC (often considered the most ported compiler). The final executable/image formats also vary, so you need a specific linker. Most likely, you will be (cross-)compiling the chip on a "regular" computer, then burning it to the chip. However, that doesn't mean you can use a typical compiler and linker targeted towards a desktop operating system.
It "depends on the chip" in three possible ways:
Some very constrained architectures are not suited to C++, or at least C++ provides constructs not suited to such architectures so offers no benefit over C. Most 8 bit devices fall into this category, but by no means all; I have seen useful C++ code implemented on MegaAVR for example.
Some devices are not supported by a C++ compiler. For example Microchip's dsPIC/PIC24 compiler is C only (third-party tools may have C++ support).
The chip architecture is designed specifically for a particular language; for example INMOS Transputers invariably ran OCCAM.
As well as C, C++, other possibilities are assembler, Forth, Ada, Pascal and many others, but C is almost ubiquitous; few chip vendors will release a new architecture or device without a C compiler being available from day-one. For other languages you will generally have to wait until a third-part decides to develop one, and that wait may be forever for a niche architecture.
Is it not possible to code and compile it elsewhere, then burn it to the chip directly in its compiled state?
That is called cross-compilation or cross-development, and is the usual development method for embedded systems. Most embedded systems lack the OS, file, performance and memory resources to self-host a compiler, and most developers want the comfort of a sophisticated development environment with IDEs, debuggers etc. in a familiar user-oriented desktop OS.
I'm not sure how this works, as
clearly I don't know much embedded
systems or how they work.
Get up-to-speed with some of these:
http://www.state-machine.com/arm/Building_bare-metal_ARM_with_GNU.pdf
http://www.eetimes.com/design/embedded
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/020179523X
http://www.amazon.com/Embedded-Systems-Firmware-Demystified-CD-ROM/dp/1578200997
Yes, there are many architectures for which a C compiler exists but a C++ compiler does not. The smaller and less fully-featured a processor you choose, the more likely this situation is to occur.
For embedded development, you almost always compile the code 'elsewhere', as you say, and then send it to the chip for execution/debugging. The process of compiling code for a different architecture than the compiler itself is built for is called 'cross-compiling'.
You are correct: chips have variations on compilers. Most/many modern chips have a gcc port; but not all.
The term 'embedded' is used to describe a vast range of hardware. Most embedded software engineering will consist of writing C/C++ code to produce a binary for a target microprocessor, but there are devices that you may work with that are not coded with compiled binary.
One example is a Programmable Logic Controller (PLC). These devices use a language called "Ladder Logic". It's a wonderful language. I have enjoyed working with it in the past.
Another thing you may encounter, as I have in the past, is devices that have interpreted BASIC emulators. Hopefully that is rare today.
C/C++ are a very good choice for firmware development. So the software you make will run on a embedded CPU/Microcontroller. In order to proper programmer the device, you will need to know the language and the device architecture.
The same code probably will not work in different devices. So, you have to learn the language, and the device architecture.
Another options are FPGAs, which are not microcontroller. FPGA are devices with specialized cell capable to transform itself in any type of synchronous circuit, including microcontroller. FPGAs are programed with Hardware Description languages, like verilog and VHDL. The "compiled" (synthesized) version of the software are called gateware.
The HDLs are the same languages used for ASICs designe also. The path to properly learn
the language are long. So I recommend start with C/C++ with pic form Microchip, which is a
low cost and highly accepted microcontroller.
If you intend to do FPGA development, the knowledge gained with C/C++/pic will be helpfull and important, because must FPGAs have embedded CPU/Microcontroller inside.
There is no direct scientific reason for it. In a lot of cases it has to do with the management and politics of the specific company.
Some companies are driven to create a turn key system and force you to buy that system and pay for maintenance. It locks out the individual developers, but there are many companies and esp government agencies that prefer this model because the support is often much better and you can often drive the direction of their products to suit your needs.
Other companies do not have the staff or the talent and outsource the solution and sometimes take whatever they can get. And you might end up with a one time developed tool that after the contractor leaves is never updated or fixed again, or if it is fixed it is a patch job by someone else. It takes money to make money, but if you run out of money before you can sell your product you still fail.
Sometimes you have companies that both have a staff that maintains their in-house must buy from them tool AND has individuals that also contribute to open tools like gcc.
Sometimes the politics or management in the company have individuals that have a strong opinion of how the world must be and only allow tools to be developed for a specific language. Or perhaps they are owned by or partner with or just like a company that has a specific language and this chip product came to be simply to support that language.
On top of all of this you have the very real technical problems of memory space, the quality and efficiency of the instruction set and how compiler friendly it is. Some architectures may be fine for assembler, but higher level compiled code chews up the limited memory resources too quickly.
Gcc in particular has a lot of problems internally (not as a people but the software/source code itself). I challenge you to write a back end, even with the tutorials that are out there. A company requires specialised talent in order to create and then maintain a gcc backend year after year, otherwise you get dumped. if your chip architecture is not 32 bit or bigger you are already fighting a losing battle with gcc, your chip architecture might be compiler friendly but just not friendly with the popular compilers design.
In the near future llvm is going to shine as a cross compiler relative to gcc because it has not yet built this internal bulk, and perhaps because the internal guts are themselves a defined language/system it may never suffer what has happened to gcc. As more folks get comfortable with llvm we will see a number of architectures ported to it. The msp430 backend was done specifically to demonstrate that you can add a target literally in an afternoon. By the end of next month, some motivated individual could have all of the targets most of us have ever heard of ported to llvm. And you dont have to build a cross compiler it is always a cross compiler. I only mention llvm because the door is now open for targets that have suffered from bad tools to recover.
Some companies, microcontrollers in particular, can and will make the programming interface proprietary so that you must use their programming tool (and or hack it and take your chances with publishing those results and or a cat and mouse of them changing it to defeat you). And they may have only made tools for Windows leaving the linux and apple folks hanging in the wind. Or they make it so that the only binaries it will load are the ones generated by their tools, here again you may hack through the binary format allowing an alternate compiler, and they may or may not work to defeat you.
Despite the technical problems the biggest is the companies politics, management, marketing teams, and supply of or lack of talent in the engineering staff. The bottom line, follow the dollars not the technology or science to understand why this language is supported and not that, or the support for this language is good, bad, or marginal.
What language to learn as a result of all of this? Start with assembler on at least three different architectures. Then C and then C++ if you feel you really need it. C and assembler are your primary languages for embedded (depending on your definition of embedded). No, we write assembler mostly for initial boot code and to support C, interrupt stuff or special instructions that are needed that the compiler cannot create. There are places like microcontrollers where it may very well make sense to use assembler for various reasons like tools, limited chip resources, etc. Even if you dont use assembler knowing it makes you a much better high level programmer.
You do need to decide what your definition of embedded is. Is it api and library calls for an application on a(n embedded) linux system (indistinguishable from the same program/calls on a desktop system). Or at the other end of the spectrum are you talking a microcontroller with maybe 256 or 1024 bytes (not mega or giga, but bytes) of program space? Or something in the middle? The majority of the "embedded" folks out there are closer to the api calls for applications on an operating system (rtos, linux, wince, etc), than the deeply embedded, so that means C, maybe C++ (always be able to fall back on C), trying to avoid python and other scripty languages that are resource hogs.
Some 8-bit parts cannot efficiently access data from a stack. Instead of using a stack to pass parameters, auto-variables and parameters are statically allocated; typically, a linker allocates the automatic variables for main() at one end of memory, and then allocate the variables for functions that are called by main and nothing else, then allocate the variables for functions that are called by those functions and nothing else, etc. This will yield an optimal allocation fairly easily, subject to some caveats:
Recursion can only be supported by adding code to explicitly copy variables onto some sort of stack arrangement; in many compilers, it's simply not supported at all.
If a function looks like it "might" call another function, the linker will assume it can do so in all cases (e.g. it may be that when 'foo' calls 'bar', one of its parameters might always have a value such that 'bar' won't call 'boz', but the linker won't know that).
Any call to a function pointer with a certain signature will be regarded as a call to all functions with the same signature whose address is taken.
If the evaluation of more than one parameter to a function requires making additional function calls, additional temporary storage must generally be pessimistically allocated even if optimal placement of the parameter storage could have avoided that.
There are many types of C programs for which the above restrictions pose no problem at all, and many more for which they pose a nuisance but not a huge one (e.g. by adding dummy parameters or return values to ensure different classes of indirectly-called functions have different signatures). Unfortunately, the code generated by an C++ to C pre-compiler will almost always involve function pointers whose call graph cannot be reasonably divined, so using C++ on such a platform is apt to be difficult if not impossible.
Related
I wanted to get more details for writing Graphics device drivers and audio device drivers using c++ for Linux box.
I am newbie at developing device drivers , Please provide me development/documentation details for the same.
Thanks
-Pravin
Coming to this page late, the question itself has been answered by Chris Stratton, but it's important to correct a couple of things Chris Becke put here that are common misconceptions with people that are not familiar with C++:
C++ does not create implicit code or data, just what you request. Even for an average C++ programmer, there will be no extra code or data. I found it out through knowing the asm behind C++, but just read Scott Meyers books it's good enough.
Not only are exceptions optional in C++, their entire code can be excluded in linkage for mostly every tool out there. This is in fact done in RT apps.
This is to address the misconceptions posted here. To add more however:
1) A novice C++ programmer may do nonsense, but a novice C programmer trying to implement by himself polymorphism and inheritance as done time and time again in the kernel just without calling it as such, will do lots more inefficient undebuggable nonsense.
2) Saying that, the only thing that may be created in base C++ is a virtual pointer IF YOU NEED IT and specify "virtual", and then also C programmers usually just create such a pointer manipulate it by themselves add lookup tables and get much harder bugs down the line due to it. As always in C++, if you don't mention "virtual" then you don't even get this pointer. Inheritance and encapsulation are of course completely free of overhead.
3) C++ creates the same amount of asm and memory as C if you don't EXPLICITLY request special features, but there is a common case when C++ is more efficient - when passing function pointers. If you use C++'s functors you can inline the pointed function. This is EXTREMELY useful in embedded apps.
4) If embedded RT uses C++ why linux doesn't? Just because of myths, so please do read this message carefully, and refer to scott meyers or better yet the asm itself. I am 20 years in RT and had the same disbelief in C++ when I switch 14 years ago, but the facts do not confirm any such distrust.
TL;DR - it's very easy to write as efficient and in a common case more efficient code in C++, studies, much industry experience and books are abound on this subject.
Linux kernel device drivers are written in C rather than C++.
Most device drivers are accessed via a special device file (/dev/yourdevice0) on which control as well as read and write operations can be performed.
User mode client programs and user mode drivers open the device file and use it as a pathway to talk to the kernel mode driver. These user mode drivers could conceivably be written in C++ or any other language.
Generally the best way to get started is to have a device which needs a driver, and learn what you need to in order to write it. And often the best way to do that is to find an existing driver for either a related device, or one with similar interface paradigms, and start by modifying that until it works for your new device instead or as well.
As there is no C++ runtime in the kernel, you will run into problems quickly. I suppose you could make a C++ runtime to run inside the kernel, but it would require some pretty good skills. Much greater skills than writing the driver in C.
Also, you would be put down instantly by Linux kernel developers. I mean REALLY put down. They'd flame you so bad, you'd never recover from it. Chances are that you would say "Screw Linux and their elitist bastards".
I don't want to sound negative, but I'm a mild and suitable voice in comparison to what you'd hear from others.
Linux drivers are developed in C. If you want to learn more about Linux drivers development, you should read this free eBook: http://lwn.net/Kernel/LDD3/
A tarball of all pdf chapters is also available: http://lwn.net/images/pdf/LDD3/ldd3_pdf.tar.bz2
C, not C++ is the language for writing (kernel mode) device drivers, and the reason ultimately is simple: C++ is an inappropriate language to use to write driver software. As a side effect of this, there is no c++ runtime available in kernel mode.
As to why c++ is inappropriate: There are at least two reasons:
Device drivers on all OS require strict code placement - some code needs to be in non pageable blocks, and non pageable memory is a limited resource. c++ generates lots of implicit code, being implicit its impossible to (a) audit, and (b) bracket with the necessary directives to guarantee placement.
exceptions have become non optional in c++. c++ exceptions are typically implemented in terms of CPU exceptions and a lot of driver code on is executed at levels where (cpu) exceptions cannot be tolerated (hence the requirement for non pageable blocks of code).
I think there are some other aspects I am forgetting, but, ideomatic c++ violates a number of constraints placed on drivers. Which is why C is preferred.
This is an old post, but I decide to write an answer since there is no answer explaining about how to do it without getting backfired.
Short Answer:
The answer is "yes, you can" … with tremendous effort. Let's just ignore Linus Trovald's opinion about C++
Long Answer:
My suggestion is writing it in C++ when you REALLY need it.
There are many pitfalls in the way of running C++ in kernel.
I recently study this subject and here’s my summarize:
There is no implementation for new and delete
It is the easiest thing to overcome.
The stack size on kernel is less than 8 kb (for 32bit) and 16kb (for 64bit).
Opps...not getting stack overrun would be challenging.
Following are not allowed
Global non-trivial variables ( there is no C++ runtime initializes it for your, using singleton would be better )
STL ( One of super powers of C++, you need to port C++ stdlib to make it working in kernel )
RTTI
Exceptions
It’s PIA to let C++ read a kernel header. If you like challenges, please at least read C++ in the Linux kernel before you go. Don't forget it has to be done every time while upgrading old code to a newer kernel.
If you’d like to know more in-depth knowledge, check out following articles.
C++ in the Linux kernel (2016)
Porting C++ code to Linux kernel (2009)
C++ article in OSDev.org
Also korisk has a demo repo in github for a barebone kernel module.
Conclusion
Again, my sincere opinion, assess the effort for running C++ in kernel module before you go.
Third time, it's better to assess the effort for running C++ in kernel module before you go!
Unfortunately, the current Linux header files are not compilable in C++ as they use new as a variable name, declare false, true and have some other issues.
You can use C++ in a Linux module but it's useless without including Linux headers. So you can't go far away from the simplest hello-world module.
I am just curious why drivers and firmwares almost always are written in C or Assembly, and not C++?
I have heard that there is a technical reason for this.
Does anyone know this?
Lots of love,
Louise
Because, most of the time, the operating system (or a "run-time library") provides the stdlib functionality required by C++.
In C and ASM you can create bare executables, which contain no external dependencies.
However, since windows does support the C++ stdlib, most Windows drivers are written in (a limited subset of) C++.
Also when firmware is written ASM it is usually because either (A) the platform it is executing on does not have a C++ compiler or (B) there are extreme speed or size constraints.
Note that (B) hasn't generally been an issue since the early 2000's.
Code in the kernel runs in a very different environment than in user space. There is no process separation, so errors are a lot harder to recover from; exceptions are pretty much out of the question. There are different memory allocators, so it can be harder to get new and delete to work properly in a kernel context. There is less of the standard library available, making it a lot harder to use a language like C++ effectively.
Windows allows the use of a very limited subset of C++ in kernel drivers; essentially, those things which could be trivially translated to C, such as variable declarations in places besides the beginning of blocks. They recommend against use of new and delete, and do not have support for RTTI or most of the C++ standard library.
Mac OS X use I/O Kit, which is a framework based on a limited subset of C++, though as far as I can tell more complete than that allowed on Windows. It is essentially C++ without exceptions and RTTI.
Most Unix-like operating systems (Linux, the BSDs) are written in C, and I think that no one has ever really seen the benefit of adding C++ support to the kernel, given that C++ in the kernel is generally so limited.
1) "Because it's always been that way" - this actually explains more than you think - given that the APIs on pretty much all current systems were originally written to a C or ASM based model, and given that a lot of prior code exists in C and ASM, it's often easier to 'go with the flow' than to figure out how to take advantage of C++.
2) Environment - To use all of C++'s features, you need quite a runtime environment, some of which is just a pain to provide to a driver. It's easier to do if you limit your feature set, but among other things, memory management can get very interesting in C++, if you don't have much of a heap. Exceptions are also very interesting to consider in this environment, as is RTTI.
3) "I can't see what it does". It is possible for any reasonably skilled programmer to look at a line of C and have a good idea of what happens at a machine code level to implement that line. Obviously optimization changes that somewhat, but for the most part, you can tell what's going on. In C++, given operator overloading, constructors, destructors, exception, etc, it gets really hard to have any idea of what's going to happen on a given line of code. When writing device drivers, this can be deadly, because you often MUST know whether you are going to interact with the memory manager, or if the line of code affects (or depends on) interrupt levels or masking.
It is entirely possible to write device drivers under Windows using C++ - I've done it myself. The caveat is that you have to be careful about which C++ features you use, and where you use them from.
Except for wider tool support and hardware portability, I don't think there's a compelling reason to limit yourself to C anymore. I often see complicated hand-coded stuff done in C that can be more naturally done in C++:
The grouping into "modules" of functions (non-general purpose) that work only on the same data structure (often called "object") -> Use C++ classes.
Use of a "handle" pointer so that module functions can work with "instances" of data structures -> Use C++ classes.
File scope static functions that are not part of a module's API -> C++ private member functions, anonymous namespaces, or "detail" namespaces.
Use of function-like macros -> C++ templates and inline/constexpr functions
Different runtime behavior depending on a type ID with either hand-made vtable ("descriptor") or dispatched with a switch statement -> C++ polymorphism
Error-prone pointer arithmetic for marshalling/demarshalling data from/to a communications port, or use of non-portable structures -> C++ stream concept (not necessarily std::iostream)
Prefixing the hell out of everything to avoid name clashes: C++ namespaces
Macros as compile-time constants -> C++11 constexpr constants
Forgetting to close resources before handles go out of scope -> C++ RAII
None of the C++ features described above cost more than the hand-written C implementations. I'm probably missing some more. I think the inertia of C in this area has more to do with C being mostly used.
Of course, you may not be able to use STL liberally (or at all) in a constrained environment, but that doesn't mean you can't use C++ as a "better C".
The comments I run into as why a shop is using C for an embedded system versus C++ are:
C++ produces code bloat
C++ exceptions take up too much
room.
C++ polymorphism and virtual tables
use too much memory or execution
time.
The people in the shop don't know
the C++ language.
The only valid reason may be the last. I've seen C language programs that incorporate OOP, function objects and virtual functions. It gets very ugly very fast and bloats the code.
Exception handling in C, when implemented correctly, takes up a lot of room. I would say about the same as C++. The benefit to C++ exceptions: they are in the language and programmers don't have to redesign the wheel.
The reason I prefer C++ to C in embedded systems is that C++ is a stronger typed language. More issues can be found in compile time which reduces development time. Also, C++ is an easier language to implement Object Oriented concepts than C.
Most of the reasons against C++ are around design concepts rather than the actual language.
The biggest reason C is used instead of say extremely guarded Java is that it is very easy to keep sight of what memory is used for a given operation. C is very addressing oriented. Of key concern in writing kernel code is avoiding referencing memory that might cause a page fault at an inconvenient moment.
C++ can be used but only if the run-time is specially adapted to reference only internal tables in fixed memory (not pageable) when the run-time machinery is invoked implicitly eg using a vtable when calling virtual functions. This special adaptation does not come "out of the box" most of the time.
Integrating C with a platform is much easier to do as it is easy to strip C of its standard library and keep control of memory accesses utterly explicit. So what with it also being a well-known language it is often the choice of kernel tools designers.
Edit: Removed reference to new and delete calls (this was wrong/misleading); replaced with more general "run-time machinery" phrase.
The reason that C, not C++ is used is NOT:
Because C++ is slower
Or because the c-runtime is already present.
It IS because C++ uses exceptions.
Most implementations of C++ language exceptions are unusable in driver code because drivers are invoked when the OS is responding to hardware interrupts. During a hardware interrupt, driver code is NOT allowed to use exceptions as that would/could cause recursive interrupts. Also, the stack space available to code while in the context of an interrupt is typically very small (and non growable as a consequence of the no exceptions rule).
You can of course use new(std::nothrow), but because exceptions in c++ are now ubiqutious, that means you cannot rely on any library code to use std::nothrow semantics.
It IS also because C++ gave up a few features of C :-
In drivers, code placement is important. Device drivers need to be able to respond to interrupts. Interrupt code MUST be placed in code segments that are "non paged", or permanently mapped into memory, as, if the code was in paged memory, it might be paged out when called upon, which will cause an exception, which is banned.
In C compilers that are used for driver development, there are #pragma directives that can control which type of memory functions end up on.
As non paged pool is a very limited resource, you do NOT want to mark your entire driver as non paged: C++ however generates a lot of implicit code. Default constructors for example. There is no way to bracket C++ implicitly generated code to control its placement, and because conversion operators are automatically called there is no way for code audits to guarantee that there are no side effects calling out to paged code.
So, to summarise :- The reason C, not C++ is used for driver development, is because drivers written in C++ would either consume unreasonable amounts of non-paged memory, or crash the OS kernel.
C is very close to a machine independent assembly language. Most OS-type programming is down at the "bare metal" level. With C, the code you read is the actual code. C++ can hide things that C cannot.
This is just my opinion, but I've spent a lot of time in my life debugging device drivers and OS related things. Often by looking at assembly language. Keep it simple at the low level and let the application level get fancy.
Windows drivers are written in C++.
Linux drivers are written in c because the kernel is written in c.
Probably because c is still often faster, smaller when compiled, and more consistent in compilation between different OS versions, and with fewer dependencies. Also, as c++ is really built on c, the question is do you need what it provides?
There is probably something to the fact that people that write drivers and firmware are usually used to working at the OS level (or lower) which is in c, and therefore are used to using c for this type of problem.
The reason that drivers and firmwares are mostly written in C or ASM is, there is no dependency on the actual runtime libraries. If you were to imagine this imaginary driver written in C here
#include <stdio.h>
#define OS_VER 5.10
#define DRIVER_VER "1.2.3"
int drivermain(driverstructinfo **dsi){
if ((*dsi)->version > OS_VER){
(*dsi)->InitDriver();
printf("FooBar Driver Loaded\n");
printf("Version: %s", DRIVER_VER);
(*dsi)->Dispatch = fooDispatch;
}else{
(*dsi)->Exit(0);
}
}
void fooDispatch(driverstructinfo *dsi){
printf("Dispatched %d\n", dsi->GetDispatchId());
}
Notice that the runtime library support would have to be pulled in and linked in during compile/link, it would not work as the runtime environment (that is when the operating system is during a load/initialize phase) is not fully set up and hence there would be no clue on how to printf, and would probably sound the death knell of the operating system (a kernel panic for Linux, a Blue Screen for Windows) as there is no reference on how to execute the function.
Put it another way, with a driver, that driver code has privilege to execute code along with the kernel code which would be sharing the same space, ring0 is the ultimate code execution privilege (all instructions allowed), ring3 is where the front end of the operating system runs in (limited execution privilege), in other words, a ring3 code cannot have a instruction that is reserved for ring0, the kernel will kill the code by trapping it as if to say 'Hey, you have no privilege to tread up ring0's domain'.
The other reason why it is written in assembler, is mainly for code size and raw native speed, this could be the case of say, a serial port driver, where input/output is 'critical' to the function in relation to timing, latency, buffering.
Most device drivers (in the case of Windows), would have a special compiler toolchain (WinDDK) which can use C code but has no linkage to the normal standard C's runtime libraries.
There is one toolkit that can enable you to build a driver within Visual Studio, VisualDDK. By all means, building a driver is not for the faint of heart, you will get stress induced activity by staring at blue screens, kernel panics and wonder why, debugging drivers and so on.
The debugging side is harder, ring0 code are not easily accessible by ring3 code as the doors to it are shut, it is through the kernel trap door (for want of a better word) and if asked politely, the door still stays shut while the kernel delegates the task to a handler residing on ring0, execute it, whatever results are returned, are passed back out to ring3 code and the door still stays shut firmly. That is the analogy concept of how userland code can execute privileged code on ring0.
Furthermore, this privileged code, can easily trample over the kernel's memory space and corrupt something hence the kernel panic/bluescreens...
Hope this helps.
Perhaps because a driver doesn't require object oriented features, while the fact that C still has somewhat more mature compilers would make a difference.
There are many style of programming such as procedural, functional, object oriented etc. Object oriented programming is more suited for modeling real world.
I would use object-oriented for device drivers if it suites it. But, most of the time when you programming device drivers, you would not need the advantages provided by c++ such as, abstraction, polymorphism, code reuse etc.
Well, IOKit drivers for MacOSX are written in C++ subset (no exceptions, templates, multiple inheritance). And there is even a possibility to write linux kernel modules in haskell.)
Otherwise, C, being a portable assembly language, perfectly catches the von Neumann architecture and computation model, allowing for direct control over all it's peculiarities and drawbacks (such as the "von Neumann bottleneck"). C does exactly what it was designed for and catches it's target abstraction model completely and flawlessly (well except for implicit assumption in single control flow which could have been generalized to cover the reality of hardware threads) and this is why i think it is a beautiful language.) Restricting the expressive power of the language to such basics eliminates most of the unpredictable transformation details when different computational models are being applied to this de-facto standard. In other words, C makes you stick to basics and allows pretty much direct control over what you are doing, for example when modeling behavior commonality with virtual functions you control exactly how the function pointer tables get stored and used when comparing to C++'s implicit vtbl allocation and management. This is in fact helpful when considering caches.
Having said that, object-based paradigm is very useful for representing physical objects and their dependencies. Adding inheritance we get object-oriented paradigm which in turn is very useful to represent physical objects' structure and behavior hierarchy. Nothing stops anyone from using it and expressing it in C again allowing full control over exactly how your objects will be created, stored, destroyed and copied. In fact that is the approach taken in linux device model. They got "objects" to represent devices, object implementation hierarchy to model power management dependancies and hacked-up inheritance functionality to represent device families, all done in C.
because from system level, drivers need to control every bits of every bytes of the memory, other higher language cannot do that, or cannot do that natively, only C/Asm achieve~
I'm in the process of developing a software library to be used for embedded systems like an ARM chip or a TI DSP (for mostly embedded systems, but it would also be nice if it could also be used in a PC environment). Obviously this is a pretty broad range of target systems, so being able to easily port to different systems is a priority.The library will be used for interfacing with a specific hardware and running some algorithms.
I am thinking C++ is the best option, over C, because it is much easier to maintain and read. I think the additional overhead is worth it for being able to work in the object oriented paradigm. If I was writing for a very specific system, I would work in C but this is not the case.
I'm assuming that these days most compilers for popular embedded systems can handle C++. Is this correct?
Is there any other factors I should consider? Is my line of thinking correct?
If portability is very important for you, especially on an embedded system, then C is certainly a better option than C++. While C++ compilers on embedded platforms are catching up, there's simply no match for the widespread use of C, for which any self-respecting platform has a compliant compiler.
Moreover, I don't think C is inferior to C++ where it comes to interfacing hardware. The amount of abstraction is sufficiently low (i.e. no deep class hierarchies) to make C just as good an option.
There is certainly good support of C++ for ARM. ARM have their own compiler and g++ can also generate EABI compliant ARM code. When it comes to the DSPs, you will have to look at their toolchain to decide what you are going to do. Be aware that the library that comes with a DSP may well not implement the full C or C++ standard library.
C++ is suitable for low-level embedded development and is used in the SymbianOS Kernel. Having said that, you should keep things as simple as possible.
Avoid exceptions which may demand more library support than what is present (therefore use new (std::nothrow) Foo instead of new Foo).
Avoid memory allocations as much as possible and do them as early as possible.
Avoid complex patterns.
Be aware that templates can bloat your code.
I have seen many complaints that C++ is "bloated" and inappropriate for embedded systems.
However, in an interview with Stroustrup and Sutter, Bjarne Stroustrup mentioned that he'd seen heavily templated C++ code going into (IIRC) the braking systems of BMWs, as well as in missile guidance systems for fighter aircraft.
What I take away from this is that experts of the language can generate sophisticated, efficient code in C++ that is most certainly suitable for embedded systems. However, a "C With Classes"[1] programmer that does not know the language inside out will generate bloated code that is inappropriate.
The question boils down to, as always: in which language can your team deliver the best product?
[1] I know that sounds somewhat derogatory, but let me say that I know an awful lot of these guys, and they churn out an awful lot of relatively simple code that gets the job done.
C++ compilers for embedded platforms are much closer to 83's C with classes than 98's C++ standard, let alone C++0x. For instance, some platform we use still compile with a special version of gcc made from gcc-2.95!
This means that your library interface will not be able to provide interfaces with containers/iterators, streams, or such advanced C++ features. You'll have to stick with simple C++ classes, that can very easily be expressed as a C interface with a pointer to a structure as first parameter.
This also means that within your library, you won't be able to use templates to their full power. If you want portability, you will still be restricted to generic containers use of templates, which is, I'm sure you'll admit, only a very tiny part of C++ templates power.
C++ has little or no overhead compared to C if used properly in an embedded environment. C++ has many advantages for information hiding, OO, etc. If your embedded processor is supported by gcc in C then chances are it will also be supported with C++.
On the PC, C++ isn't a problem at all -- high quality compilers are extremely widespread and almost every C compiler is directly associated with a C++ compiler that's quite good, though there are a few exceptions such as lcc and the newly revived pcc.
Larger embedded systems like those based on the ARM are generally quite similar to desktop systems in terms of tool chain availability. In fact, many of the same tools available for desktop machines can also generate code to run on ARM-based machines (e.g., lots of them use ports of gcc/g++). There's less variety for TI DSPs (and a greater emphasis on quality of generated code than source code features), but there are still at least a couple of respectable C++ compilers available.
If you want to work with smaller embedded systems, the situation changes in a hurry. If you want to be able to target something like a PIC or an AVR, C++ isn't really much of an option. In theory, you could get (for example) Comeau to produce a custom port that generated code you could compile on that target's C compiler -- but chances are pretty good that even if you did, it wouldn't work out very well. These systems are really just too limitated (especially on memory size) for C++ to fit them well.
Depending on what your intended use is for the library, I think I'd suggest implementing it first as C - but the design should keep in mind how it would be incorporated into a C++ design. Then implement C++ classes on top of and/or along side of the C implementation (there's no reason this step cannot be done concurrently with the first). If your C design is done with a C++ design in mind, it's likely to be as clean, readable and maintainable as the C++ design would be. This is somewhat more work, but I think you'll end up with a library that's useful in more situations.
While you'll find C++ used more and more on various embedded projects, there are still many that restrict themselves to C (and I'd guess this is more often the case than not) - regardless of whether or not the tools support C++. It would be a shame to have a nice library of routines that you could bring to a new project you're working on, but be unable to use them because C++ isn't being used on that particular project.
In general, it's much easier to use a well-designed C library from C++ than the other way around. I've taken this approach with several sets of code including parsing Intel Hex files, a simple command parser, manipulating synchronization objects, FSM frameworks, etc. I'm planning on doing a simple XML parser at some point.
Here's an entirely different C++-vs-C argument: stable ABIs. If your library exports a C ABI, it can be compiled with any compiler that works on the system, because C ABIs are generally platform standards. If your library exports a C++ ABI, it can only be compiled with a matching compiler -- because C++ ABIs are usually not platform standards, and often differ from compiler to compiler and even version to version.
Interestingly, one of the rare exceptions to this is ARM; there's an ARM C++ ABI specification, and all compliant ARM compilers follow it. This is not true on x86; on x86, you're lucky if a C++ library compiled with a 4.1 version of GCC will link correctly with an application compiled with GCC 4.4, and don't even ask about 3.4.6.
Even if you export a C ABI, you can have problems. If your library uses C++ internally, it will then link to libstdc++ for things in the C++ std:: namespace. If your user compiles a C++ application that uses your library, they'll also link to libstdc++ -- and so the overall application gets linked to libstdc++ twice, and their libstdc++ may not be compatible with your libstdc++, which can (or so I understand) lead to odd errors from the intersection of the two. Considerably less likely, but still possible.
All of these arguments only apply because you're writing a library, and they're not showstoppers. But they are things to be aware of.
With RoR, Java, C#, PHP etc.. what do people use C++ for these days?
You're comparing apples to oranges. Languages such as PHP, Ruby, and Python are scripting languages. They a) are interpreted, and b) don't provide the kind of low-level memory access that C++ does, and thus aren't suitable for things that need to talk directly to hardware. Java and C# both run in a runtime environment on top of a particular platform and for the same reason aren't always the best choice. In all of these cases, things such as garbage collection can get in the way of speed and performance.
Languages are just tools; you choose the best tool for the task at hand. Just because higher-level languages make many tasks easier for a particular application domain doesn't mean that lower level languages don't have their place.
C++ is the preferred language when the user experience is more important than
development cost.
Performance. When Users time is valuable enough to spend some extra development hours.
Stability. Other languages may quick whip up something of descent quality.
But If you want it flawless, C++ is a better choise. As usual in c++ it is both
easier to get it totally wrong and totally right, depending on your skill and time available.
Ease of use. You can deliver a single binary that works everywhere. No need
for inexperienced end user to fiddle with installling runtimes and
interpreters, worring about VM versions and GC tweaking.
Users resources. Just because the user has 2gb of ram doesn't mean that she
wants our program to use all of it.
Usability. If you want specialized non-standard streamlined user interface.
Something that seems to have been overlooked so far are projects where there is already a substantial C or C++ code base. Most programming work is not going into creating brand new programs. If you are so blessed as to be creating something completely de novo, great, but that's not the common situation.
It's possible to mix languages, of course, so you can have the old C++ core program with additional code written in some other language. But, this is not easy, for a number of reasons:
There's the impedance mismatch between the languages themselves. Try to send a C++ std::multiset to Perl. It's kind of like an associative array, but not really. You end up using lowest-common-denominator data structures, avoiding anything that's specific to only one of the two languages. You then lose out on some of the features you were trying to gain by mixing languages.
You have to spend a lot of effort to define some kind of API between the two parts of the program. Most programs are not already architected to have such a layer. Refactoring and packaging the old core functionality to provide this is not easy, and it's ongoing work as the program's scope expands.
You either have to integrate the interpreter for the other language into the old C++ core, or you have to run it as a separate program and arrange for coordination between these two different programs. They must start up and shut down together, they have to maintain their IPC channels, etc.
Having overcome all the above, you will frequently find yourself needing to write code for both halves of the program. You will always have some delay while your brain makes a kind of mental context shift between the two languages. It never drops to 0 delay. This soaks up some of the superior productivity of the higher-level language. This is especially bad when working on a new feature in the high-level code that requires adding something to the old C++ core, so you're constantly bouncing between the two. It can be done, but it's a drag on productivity, the main claimed advantage from switching to some other language.
Two of the most common usage of C++ I would think are graphical interfaces and video games programming.
Almost everything on the desktop (except paint.net)
Everything on the server that RoR, php etc is running on top of (any language that can't write it's own compiler is probably written in C++)
Anything embedded smaller than an iPhone
Anything with a lot of computation - that isn't in Fortran ;-) Yes I know C# performance has improved, anybody got round to rewriting LAPACK, BLAS or NAG in it yet?
edit -
Is there a badge for most comments?
This is why SO doesn't work for discussions. Notice the order of comments change as they are voted. If you want to have childish arguements there is always reddit.
Anything where performance is a high priority. Garbage collection, HTML rendering, animation, games, intensive computation...
And from personal experience Computer-aided Design (CAD) plugins/addins are also C++, especially if you want to target multiple CAD systems (e.e Pro/Engineer, SoludWorks, CATIA, UG, AutoCAD etc).
Backends to projects. Many projects are written in multiple languages, where all the backend operations are written in C++ where APIs to other languages are provided.
The best project I can think of that does this is GNU Radio. Basically, how GNU Radio works is that all the DSP blocks (modulators, filters, etc) are written in C++. However, you make your radio using python, that is you connect the blocks together in python.
While other languages have come along. Many poeple who have used C++ in the past aren't just going to jump bandwagon with Java or C#. Linux all well and good in it's own right, but the majority of the computer Market still belongs to the Evil Empire. Java is NOT the dominant language there, no matter how much the religeous zelots claim it to be. Actually in small business apps, VB is king. I think I saw one figure giving it 58% of internal development for GUI front ends. C# is picking up momentum, but I suspect it primarily from the younger crowd who are less set in there ways. You can argue till your blue in the face virtues of a new language with someone who's been using a language for 15 years, and they just won't care. "Oh that's neat." and they turn back around and continue typing their C++.
Edit:
OS development, C maybe C++.
Tool & Langauge development, C maybe C++.
Industrial control, C, C++, Labview in somecases, FPGA development and NO trendy languages.
Embedded alot of C, some C++ and some assembly required.
(The IPhone is a general purpose palm computer, with phone capability. Not special
purpose computer designed for a singular purpose.)
PS3 C, C++ and some assembly required.
XBox360 Some C#, mostly C++ and some C and again some assembly required.
GPU Programming? It ain't PHP that's for DAMN sure.
Windows Programming C++, C#, and even some C still, VB.
Edit:
#Jeff L:
The Cult following that many these language have, I find irrational and distasteful. I start edging away from anyone who waxes poetic about ANY language, it's just mental. It's not a matter of opinion that professionally sold applications AREN'T written in Java for Window, it's fact. I'm sorry, but it's true. Maybe in the IT world it's useful, but not for shrink wrapped Windows software. I write embedded software, and the "feature" of not having pointers means that in order to do any practical work there or on OSs and device drivers requires hacks that violate the language it's self. There are cases where you have to "fly without a net" and the interpretive languages are designed SPECIFICALLY not to let you do that.
And not to be too argumentative with, but the heritage code base is a hard issue to get around. While we write new code in C and C++, I can't even get management PAY to upgrade old code written in Fortran or Ada to C or C++ forget Java that requires a whole new coding standard and butt loads procedures and documentation have to update, that cost even more. And unless the only software you write is GPL and freeware, who's paying for it is the primary concern. And in many cases "if it's isn't broke don't fix it" doesn't even apply, "if it's broke and no one bitching, we're not paying to fix" is managements choice.
Any project that needs direct hardware access, like drivers, operating systems
Any project where better performance is a competitive advantage, like games, simulations
Any project that needs a small footprint, like embedded systems
Check out the click modular router. Written completely in C++ (with some C where necessary)
A lot of micro ISVs are (enthusiastically) using C++ for almost anything you can think of.
It isn't maintained regularly, but here is a list of apps written using C++ Builder. I was pleasantly surprised to see WinRAR and Partition Magic.
I just interviewed with a company that has C++ programs using VS5.0 as they keep planning on phasing the C++ apps out, so updating is not needed. After 12 years you would expect that they would just upgrade their compiler.
If you want to use DirectX the you have to use C++ now, as MS dropped support for a Managed DirectX API.
As was mentioned, in the embedded world C++ or C is the primary languages.
If you work in a system that cannot crash, then you will may use C or C++ and just don't use new or malloc, but use arrays, so that you won't have any memory leaks, which can be a likely reason a long running process may run out of memory and crash.
If you are going to do a great deal of kernel level programming then C or C++ makes more sense as there will be some functions to call that will be incredibly difficult to call from C#, for example.
We do these projects in c++:
Simulation
Game
GIS tools
if you need performance, you should use c++...
Today I got into a very interesting conversation with a coworker, of which one subject got me thinking and googling this evening. Using C++ (as opposed to C) in an embedded environment. Looking around, there seems to be some good trades for and against the features C++ provides, but others Meyers clearly support it. So, I was wondering who would be able to shed some light on this topic and what the general consensus of the community was.
C++ for embedded platforms is perfectly fine - as long as you treat it as a better C. I love the fact that the language is slightly more structured. You can still do all the things that you want to do with C. Just remember to stick to an embedded C library like Newlib or uClibc.
I particularly like the abstraction that we can build using C++, particularly for I/O devices. So, we can have a class for UART and a class for GPIO and what nots. It is cleaner than having a bunch of functions (IMHO).
The fear of C++ among embedded developers is largely a thing of the past, when C++ compilers were not as good as C compilers (optimizations and code quality wise).
This applies especially to modern platforms with 32 bit architectures.
But, C is certainly still the preferred choice for more confined environments (as is assembler for 8 bit or 4 bit targets).
So, it really boils down to the resources your target platform provides, and how much of these resources you are likely to actually require, i.e. if you can afford the 'luxury' of doing embedded development in C++ (or even Java for that matter), because you know that you'll hardly have any issues regarding memory or CPU constraints.
Nowadays, many modern embedded platforms (think gaming consoles, mobile phones, PDAs etc), have really become very capable targets, with RISC architectures, several MB of RAM, and 3D hardware acceleration.
It would be a poor decision, to program such platforms using just C or even assembler out of uninformed performance considerations, on the other hand programming a 16 bit PIC in C++ would probably also be a controversial decision.
So, it's really a matter of asking yourself how much of the power, you'll actually need and how much you can afford to sacrifice, in order to improve the development experience (high level language, faster development, less tedious/redundant tasks).
It sort of depends on the particular nature of your embedded system and which features of C++ you use. The language itself doesn't necessarily generate bulkier code than C.
For example, if memory is your tightest constraint, you can just use C++ like "C with classes" -- that is, only using direct member functions, disabling RTTI, and not having any virtual functions or templates. That will fit in pretty much the same space as the equivalent C code, since you've no type information, vtables, or redundant functions to clutter things up.
I've found that templates are the biggest thing to avoid when memory is really tight, since you get one copy of each template function for each type it's specialized on, and that can rapidly bloat code segment.
In the console video games industry (which is sort of the beefy end of the embedded world) C++ is king. Our constraints are hard limits on memory (512mb on current generation) and realtime performance. Generally virtual functions and templates are used, but not exceptions, since they bloat the stack and are too perf-costly. In fact, one major manufacturer's compiler doesn't even support exceptions at all.
In my previous company all embedded code was written in a small subset of C code due to security (SIL-2) and memory reasons. By introducing a richer language like C++ in that particular scenario would have maybe cause more trouble than benefits.
In all due respect to C++ (which is a language I really love) but I think C - in our particular scenario - was the better choice.
I bet in some cases C++ is just fine to use for embedded applications but it really depends on the application - there is a difference if your program is controlling a nuclear plant or administrating an address book on your cell phone.
I don't know about "general consensus", only the company I work for (which does a lot of development for mobile phones, car navigation systems, DPFs, etc.).
The main drawback I've encountered to using C++ on embedded platforms as opposed to C is that it isn't quite as portable - there are many more cases of compilers that don't adhere to the standard which can cause problems if you need to build your code with more than 1 compiler or outright have bugs in the implementation. Then there are environments where C++ code simply won't run - BREW's issues with relocatable code and its "native OOP" don't play so well with "regular" C++ classes and inheritance.
In the end, though, if you're only targeting 1 platform, I'd say use whatever you think is "better" (faster, less bugs, better design) for your development - in most cases the issues can be worked around quite easily.
Depends what kind of embedded development you are doing. I've done embedded development with both C++, C, and Assembly on various platforms, you can even use Java to write applications on smart phones.
For instance on a smart phone like device that's running Windows CE 5, almost all of the code is C++, including in the operating system. Only small bits are written in C or assembly.
On the other hand I've written code for an MSP430 microcontroller, which was in C, and I probably would have done that in C++ had the compiler been more reliable and standards compliant.
Also I seem to recall a university lecturer of mine talking about writing embedded code in Forth or something. So really any language can do.
Now a days it will all boil down to the C++ runtime support of the platform. You're likely to find a way to compile C++ code down to almost any embedded platform with GCC, but if you can't find a suitable C++ runtime for the platform your efforts will be futile, unless you write your own C++ runtime.
One of the few things I tend to agree with Linus is his opinion about C++ http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918
Besides this, if you really really want to use C++ you might want to have a look at http://www.caravan.net/ec2plus/ which describes Embedded C++, or better to say you should not use in C++ for embedded systems.
The big thing keeping us with using C++ for a long time was the VxWorks support for it, which truly sucked. That supposidly has gotten better on VxWorks 6 (yes, it's been out a while... good 'ole vendor lock-in and lack of company vision has kept us stuck on VxWorks 5.5).
So for us it's mostly a question of the environment. After that, C++ can obviously be just as good as C... it's a matter of people understanding what their tool does and how to use it. C++ may make it easier to write incredibly inefficient code, but that doesn't mean we have to succomb to it.
I am currently fighting a problem with exceptions in an embedded Linux application. We are trying to port software written for a different platform that seemed to support exceptions well, but the new compiler tools (a port of gcc) reports errors when creating the eh_frame. I was against using exceptions for this tool, but the developer reassured me that modern compilers would support it well.
My opinion is that there are some advantages to C++, but I would stay away from exceptions and the standard template library. We haven't had problems using virtual functions.
C++ is suitable for microcontrollers and devices without an OS. You just have to know the architecture of the system and be conscious of time and space constrains, especially when doing mission critical programming.
With C++ you can do abstraction which often leads to an increased footprint in the code. You do not want this when programming for a resource-limited machine such as an 8-bit MCU.
Generally, avoid:
Dynamic memory allocation because it represents uncertainty in timing
Overloading
RTTI because the memory cost is large
Exceptions because of the execution speed lowering
Be cautious with virtual functions as they have a resource cost of a vtable per class and one pointer to the vtable per object. Also, use const in place of #define.
As you move up to 16 and 32-bit MCUs, with 10s or 100s of MB RAM, heavier features like the ones mentioned above may be used.
So to round up, C++ is useful for embedded systems. A main benefit is that OOP can be useful when you want to abstract aspects of the microcontroller, for example UART or state machines. But you may want to avoid certain features all of the time and some of the features some of the time, depending on the target you are programming for.