I don't know a lot about declarative languages. I'm looking for simple and minimalistic language to describe objects, their attributes and a way that they react when any environment event occurs.
I would like to use, process and write this code from c++.
It would be useful for 2d rogue-like or strategy games, any simulations etc.
Does exist anything like that or similar?
I would like to try to write this on my own, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel :)
I am pretty sure there are no Declarative Languages that do what you are looking for. Declarative Languages are highly tailored to their problem domain. When you say you want a language that describes "a way that [objects] react when any environment event occurs" makes me think that a Declarative Language is not what you're looking for since that implies side effects.
If you are looking for Embeddable Languages then Lua and Python are both proven. The Warcraft 3 engine used a Lua derivative for its scripting which is very similar to what you are describing, and Python is widely used for embedding in general.
If you are looking for a standard minimalistic data format, JSON is pretty much the way to go, and lord knows there are standard parsers out there.
Okay, so I've been getting into 2D game developing/programming , and many games I've seen use some sort of scripting language too. So I'm wondering - What's the purpose of using scripts in games? I know there's not simple one reason answer, and I've been trying to consider all the possibilities. Here's what I 'think' I know so far:
1) Scripts allow for changing the game without having to re-compile.
2) Scripts are easier for non-programmers to use.
3) Scripts allow me to separate the engine from the game itself allowing me to make other games with the same components quicker?
That's about all I'm aware of. My next question is, if I'm going to be Dev/programming a game alone - do I really need to use scripts? Or could I prototype the game using something like python or ruby, to allow for rapid testing, then rewrite the code in C++ saving time and compiler bugs, etc?
Another thing I'm wondering, Am I better off using Ruby or Python since I'm most experienced with those? Or should I use Lua, Perl or something else if it better fits what I aim to achieve? Speaking on that matter, what really should I use scripts for? should I use them to position and model game menu UI's, write/read save-files, load map levels, hold arrays or structures of game terminology such as "New Game" or "Quit," all of the above, none of the above?
If I make use of scripts, won't that allow game mechanics to be edited by the end user? Or is there a way to package the scripts into one compressed file that the engine can read?
Most basically, I'm wondering:
What should I use scripting in my game for? And why?
Do I need use scripting languages if I'm working alone or with programmers as opposed to Devs?
What scripting language 'should' I use if I were to be making platformers, RPGs, or what-have-you?
your top 3 reasons are all 100% correct and are the main reasons for using scripting languages along with your game engine.
Personally I've only really had experience with Lua through Luabind. It's a little tricky to setup but it was worth it. What you can do with scripting languages is expose the data structures and/or functionality that you want the 'user' in this case yourself, to be able to use. Generally speaking the only game mechanics etc that can be editted would be the ones you allowed them to.
What should I use scripting in my game for? And why?
Asset loading, exposing features/types, ie, for our game engine (written in c++), we had a base level, and then many different types of level inherriting from it, such as wave level, death match, etc. The user simply states in the script what type of level they need, and then chucks in the assets here too. In my demo we had;
Level="wavelevel"
--Level Initial number of enemies
EnemyNumbers="3"
--Level Total number of waves
WaveNumbers="4"
--Wave coefficient
WaveCoeff="1.1"
--Size of terrain
TerrainSize="256"
--Terrain file
TerrainFile="resource/Models/mountainous.raw"
Don't worry too much about the numbers and all of that.
As you can see that does some asset loading as well as determining the level type
We also gave a lot of control for the AI to scripts, in fact, the data structures were almost completely exposed to Lua.
Do I need use scripting languages if I'm working alone or with programmers as opposed to Devs?
Yes no maybe? We all prefer 'real' coding of course. If you can make your game engine abstract enough to build completely different games just with Lua, then it means you've done a great job and have designed it very well.
The other thing you have to think about, especially if you're game engine is quite huge, and lets face it, there isn't really going to be a small one, each time you compile, it can take minutes! It's the linker that's taking time here.
What scripting language 'should' I use if I were to be making platformers, RPGs, or what-have-you?
I've only ever used Lua, so that's the only advice I can give here.
Hope this is helpful info for you.
Honestly, as this sounds like your first attempt at a game ever, you shouldn't even be worrying about this sort of thing. Instead, I'd be more worried about keeping the scope of your project down to a level where you have a snow ball's chance of actually completing something. If you haven't done something at the level of Tic-Tac-Toe or Pong yet, do that first. What you learn there will be more valuable than worrying about a scripting language.
Oh and if you are doing an RPG as your first attempt at a game. Don't. They are by far the hardest type of game to do even for professional developers with many, many times the resources available to them. Keep it simple and and use this as a learning experience.
Back to your questions:
If you are the only one who will ever see your game, your choice on using a scripting language or not. If it will save you time overall or you want to learn how to do integration of scripting with code, go for it, but beware it will be a bit of a time sink.
Yes/no/depends on your second. If the scope of your game is small, scripting isn't as important. If you doing this alone, scripting isn't as important.
Your choice on what you know or what your engine will support (or what engine tools you cna buy to support). Lua is popular, but even hand rolled scripts will work as well. It's more about decoupling data from code and design type work from engineer type work.
Your initial points above apply. Scripts keep non coders out of code and allow anyone on a team to easily change data related stuff that should be in code anyways. Scripts also act as a very high level language allowing lots of game level changes in controlled ways that would/will look ugly if placed in code. I've personally worked on games that were done both ways. Scripted games were a bit easier to maintain at the end of the game cycle - IF IF IF the script support code was mature and had been run through some debug cycles. New script support code is harder to debug than coding things straight because there are more possible points of failure. Games that were coded without scripts tended to get done a touch faster, but required a lot more programmer/engineer time which means the overall scope of things had to be limited to stay on budget.
I will say that well designed scripting and overall gaming system will always beat straight coding. Look at Unity for an example of how scripting and code and everything else can be coupled into a slick interface that allows very quick game development.
What should I use scripting in my game for? And why?
The reasons you cited are good ones. One thing that you might need to understand is that most professionnal games are still built with C++ and it's far from being flexible to change if the code base is big. So if you use C++ you'll need scripting languages to make quick changes where it's imporant to be allowed to do so accordingly to the reasons you listed.
If you don't use C++, maybe you use a language that can absorb changes quickly, making the main purpose of scripting not so obvious. I wouldn't use scripting language in a Flash or Python game for example.
Do I need use scripting languages if I'm working alone or with
programmers as opposed to Devs?
As my previous answer : it depends on the timing of changes. Think that the core rules of games rarely change but everything relative to level design will, and should be testable ASAP. If you can do it in the game's programming language, why bother? If you can't, then any way to speed-up change integration will pay.
What scripting language 'should' I use if I were to be making
platformers, RPGs, or what-have-you?
Frankly, there is no one solution to any problem. I personally use Falcon and ChaiScript, Lua is well known but any scripting language that can be used with your game programming will do. That's a question already asked around and if you have doubt, just choose Lua as it's the most common in gaming.
I'll give you a quick and short answer. Scripts are mostly for changing things while the game is still running which you can edit things faster. This is much better then recompile, reloading the assets, going to the specific point in game, activate certain conditionals (items, talking to people in specific order, etc) and etc.
Things done in script are character speech, NPC interaction with triggers (for example walking somewhere stopping to talk to another NPC, then run somewhere, scripting is used for timing), triggers or events in general and enemy stats (health, speed, accuracy, sometimes logic for said character).
The reasons you list are all valid reasons for using scripting languages in games. I'd also add another reason though: different languages are better suited to different kinds of programming tasks and a high level scripting language allows you to write parts of your game in a language that might be a better fit than C++.
The main reasons C++ is widely used in games are performance, easy access to low level native APIs or hardware (on consoles) and inertia - most games are written in C++ so most third party libraries and middleware for games are written in C++ and most easily interfaced with from C++. For many tasks however higher level languages like Python, C# or Ruby have programmer productivity benefits over C++ that can outweigh the advantages of C++ for code that is not performance critical or does not have to interface with native APIs.
A well designed C++ game engine with a high level scripting language can give you the best of both worlds - the performance and low level access of C++ where it's most needed and the productivity benefits of a high level language where they are most needed.
As a matter of fact, almost all MMORPG game servers are programmed in script.
All the C++ engin will embed a script language for logic handling, lua is a suitable script language for it.
In bigworld, python is the default embed language.
And node.js is also a good candidate for game server programming. Because its network io ability is superior. There is an open source framework in node.js:
https://github.com/NetEase/pomelo/
I've found it unhelpful to use scripts, both when I was employed in a large game studio and in my work as an indie developer. On the other hand I have friends who've used professional-grade, modern engines with scripting technology successfully. As you're doing indie game development on your own (or in a small team), I think you should avoid it. The main reasons are:
It adds overhead pretty much everywhere: one more language to master (per developer in the team), performance is slower than native, and the API the weakest link which means you often need to rebuild the binary anyway.
The only real gain with a higher-level language is less development hours up front (if you're using a mature engine), but in my experience that time is eaten up by time-consuming bug-smashing in the end.
Many game scripting languages uses dynamic typing (Lua, Stackless Python, Pawn), which I find error-prone compared to statically typed languages. If you too feel it's only good for simple things, you might as well do it natively instead.
As a side-note I do find game scripting languages exceptionally useful, but only for quick-hack/prototype apps, not for huge components within games. See my answer here.
I'm not convinced scripting interfaces for games you write yourself are so useful. I did some work on Freeciv once, and immense effort went into enabling "modding" using the scripting interface. A feature that seemed little used. I think there is a danger of the inner platform effect. You don't need a scripting language to customize your game: you already have a perfectly good programming language (C++, in your case) for doing that. It's a WTF.
What should I use scripting in my game for? And why?
As everyone (including you) has said, scripts make your game easier to edit. On a larger team scripting also has a very good productivity effect: the tech-savy folks can continue to polish the engine, while the creative people can work on the actual game, and the two teams don't have to get in each other's way.
Do I need use scripting languages if I'm working alone or with programmers as opposed to Devs?
You don't need it and depending on what you're final goal is, it might actually be a waste of time to implement scripting. I also develop a 2D scriptable game atm; I'm alone but I'm making it scriptable also as a personal challenge and also because I want the game to be easily modifiable.
What scripting language 'should' I use if I were to be making platformers, RPGs, or what-have-you?
The top two most popular options are Lua and Python. Most people recommend Lua because it's slightly faster. I went with Python because it has (native) support for classes — which works well with my existing C++ architecture — and also because I find it to be a much more enjoyable language to work with.
Okay, I know this is a bit dead, but I have to say this. There is literally no such thing as programming without scripts. It honestly doesn't matter if you write them in yourself or not, fact is, somebody wrote those scripts. Like ruby, in order to use it, you need a program like say notepad+ in order to set it up, or any computer based RPG Maker from enterbrain uses a form of ruby to operate. like it or not, when using computers to design a game, learn to script. Now as for the language, look some up and try different ones out. Don't cheap out with using a pre compiled engine, just work from scratch. trust me, you will be better off. I am still trying to decide which I like better, Lua(C++) or Ruby. I may just use pure C++
Context:
An ongoing problem we have been facing is unit testing our market data applications. These applications sit and observe data being retrieved from feeds and does something. Some critical events which are hard to trigger rarely occur and it is are difficult for the Testers to verify our applications perform correctly under all situations, hence we have to rely on unit tests.
These systems generally work by issuing callbacks (into our application) when an event has occurred, then our task to deal with this.
Solution I envision:
Is it possible to embed Python, or extend (not 100% clear on this), so that a tester could fire up a Python REPL and issue function calls that are akin to callbacks which are then handled by our C++ classes. Some form of dynamic manipulation of our objects at runtime.
I do something similar to this in one of my projects by using SWIG to generate python bindings for the relevant parts of the C++ code. Then I embed the interpreter as others have suggested. Having done that I can execute python code at will (e.g. PyRun_SimpleString), which can access C++ code. Normally I end up using something like a Singleton to make accessing specific C++ objects from python easier.
Also worth a mention is directors in swig python modules, which allow virtual functions to be handled much more intuitively. Depending on quite what you're doing you might find these very helpful.
What you want to do is possible, though not trivial to get right. It sounds like you want to embed (rather than extend) Python. Both topics are covered in the tutorial here.
There's quite a lot of work in mapping from C++ classes to Python classes, and there are a number of things that can go wrong in subtle ways, particularly with memory leaks and multithreading (if your existing code is multi-threaded). However, if it's only for use in a testing situation and stability is not mission-critical then it might be less of a problem.
Yes, it is possible. See this for the how.
I am currently deciding on an alternative JVM language to port an existing Swing desktop application written in Java 6. Given that JavaFX specifically targets this kind of application, it would seem that my best option is JavaFX Script.
However, what about other kinds of applications and libraries? Would JavaFX Script be the best choice in general for a second JVM language?
Currently, it seems that Scala is the most talked about alternative to the Java language. This month (October 2009), it is at position 34 in the TIOBE index, while JavaFX Script is at position 44, and Clojure, Fan, and Groovy are at positions below 50.
So, what are your impressions? Which language would you invest your time in learning and using (and why), assuming you can freely choose the language for a given project to run in the JVM?
My main question would be: why are you porting an existing application? The answer to this question may give you some idea of where you want to go.
Some quick perspectives on the main choices:
Scala is in my view, a better Java than Java. If you want a language that takes the best bits of Java buts adds a lot of new innovations and features, then it may well be for you.
Clojure is an amazingly well designed language, particularly if you believe in a future of highly complex, concurrent applications. It's also extremely productive - I can probably create more value/hour in Clojure than any other language. However, unless you already know Lisp it will seem very unfamiliar at first. If you are willing to live on the cutting edge to get these benefits, Clojure may well be for you.
JavaFX script - has some very nice features for GUI design, and clearly has support of Sun/Oracle. On the other hand, I don't see it having massive traction outside this domain. I'd suggest giving it a trail run to see if it meets you needs.
Java - should still be on your list! If the reason you are porting is because the code has become difficult to maintain, then maybe a focused phase of re-factoring while staying on Java can get you the benefits you want. It's possible to write perfectly good GUI applications in Java.
Groovy - really nice scripting language on the JVM. Particularly good if you want to embed scripting features within an existing Java/JVM application. Not sure I'd choose it for (re)writing a complete application however.
JRuby / Jython - haven't seen these much myself but heard good things. Probably most suitable if you have Ruby / Python skills in the team but also want the benefits of the JVM platform.
The best alternate language, and the best language overall, IMO, is that which best allows you to write the program in the best model for you.
So, if you are writing a GUI app, then Scala may be the incorrect choice, as you wouldn't be moving away from Swing.
If JavaFX best meets your needs, then use that language.
If you know LISP then Clojure would be a good choice, but, like Scala, not for this problem, it sounds like.
If you don't know lisp and you want/need a functional programming language, then Scala would be the best choice.
Basically, there is no one language that is best in all situations, it helps to know what you want to do, and the strengths/weaknesses of the various options.
Those all sound like good choices. You could add JRuby to the list...
I'm trying to write a game and implement scripting so that later on in development I won't have to recompile everything when I want to change numbers.
My problem is that I don't know how scripts should interface with the game. The scripting language I'm using is angelscript.
Right now, I have a state: the intro state, which I'm using as a test for most of the modules in my game "engine" (it's more like a loose collection of classes). It will load and draw a picture and draw text, and use scripting to update itself, and maybe switch to a dummy state afterwards to test the state manager.
While writing it, I realized that using the script to do most of the updating would require that I register most of my game engine's modules with the script, and pretty much move the bulk of the code to the scripting language. Personally, I'd rather have the C++ portion doing the majority of the work, and have the scripting language come up with the numbers to use in the formulas/drawing/whatever.
However, if I'm right, doing it that way would entail lots of different update modules for the majority of the things in the game that need to be updated, and requiring that they all be loaded in, and that the C++ code would have to run each update function individually.
Or, there's a way to achieve script and program interoperability that I'm overlooking. Either way, could someone help me figure out what the best way to get scripting implemented into my game is?
There's no correct answer to such a large question really. You do it the same way you would do engine/game logic separation in C++. Define an API that the script can call that allows it whatever it is you want it to do. Register functions in that API with the script, and use the API in angelscript. What that API should be depends entirely on your needs and what kind of power you want to give the scripter.
If you want AngelCode (or any other scripting approach of your choice) to just "come up with some numbers", hey, use it that way -- e.g., in AngelCode, compile the scripts by exposing to them a single C++ function of yours, say "void ProvideNumberFor(string reason, number value)", and the scripts will be responsible for calling that function as many times as needed to "provide the numbers", and nothing more.
If you look at real examples like Garry's mod or games written with UnrealScript you'll find that quite a bit of logic in modern games is implemented in the scripts. C/C++ code is best for "static" and bottleneck-prone parts of the engine, like the renderer, physics engine, low-level networking, etc. Scripts are best for content (i.e., game logic).
Aside: The best game-scripting language IMHO is Lua. It provides easy intregration with C/C++, is very well-documented, and will be familiar to users of Javascript.
I've used Lua for exactly this purpose, and it does a great job. Look at all the games programmed using Lua. Also, it's blazingly fast.
EDIT: I didn't read the question fully...sorry. This is my real answer ;)
If you're familiar with Qt4/Javscript you can always use QtScript http://qt.nokia.com/doc/4.5/qtscript.html.