I know this question could be in vain, but it's just out of curiosity, and I'm still much a newb^^ Anyways I've been loving python for some time while learning it. My problem is obviously speed issues. I'd like to get into indie game creation, and for the short future, 2d and pygame will work.
But I'd eventually like to branch into the 3d area, and python is really too slow to make anything 3d and professional. So I'm wondering if there has ever been work to create a high-level language able to import and use c libraries? I've looked at Genie and it seems to be able to use certain libraries, but I'm not sure to what extent. Will I be able to use it for openGL programing, or in a c game engine?
I do know some lisp and enjoy it a lot, but there aren't a great many libraries out there for it. Which leads to the problem: I can't stand C syntax, but C has libraries galore that I could need! And game engines like irrlicht. Is there any language that can be used in place of C around C?
Thanks so much guys
Python can call functions in dynamically loaded C libraries (.so in unix, .dll in Windows) using the ctypes module.
There is also cython - a variation of python that compiles to C and can call C libraries directly. You can mix modules written in pure Python and cython.
You may also want to look at the numerous 3D game engines either written specifically for Python or with a python interface. The ones I have heard the most about (but not used) are Blender and Python-Ogre.
Panda3D is an engine which uses Python as it's "game logic" interface. You basically write everything in Python and the Panda3D backend (which I assume is mostly written in C or C++) is responsible for rendering.
Check out the gallery of projects that use Panda3D. It's not going to be AAA the-next-Gears-of-War level graphics, but it's still pretty impressive.
Using swig you can make C imports in various languages: lua, python, php, c# ...
See more info here about supported wrappers.
Python is able to use C libraries via the ctypes module. You'll have to write some Python code to import the C functions, but if the C API is clean and simple you'll have no trouble at all.
You might find these useful:
C functions from Python
Integrating Python, C and C++
I have been using PyOpenGL, it works great. Swig does its job if you want to call C/C++ libraries from Python.
I'm surprised that no-one has yet stated clearly that C++ is what you are looking for. Like you I have a distaste for C syntax, but that's a poor reason for avoiding C++ if you want to get into 3D gaming. Do you want to dive into 3D gaming, or do you want to sit on the edge of the pool crying that the water is too cold ?
I think you'll also find that C++ plays very well with OpenGL, which is probably not true of a lot of the alternatives that have already been suggested
To some extent, Cython might be what you are looking for. It allows you to use Python as a high level language, but then use C for the parts that need to be optimized.
But, at the end of the day, if you want to do 3D, just learning C or C++ may be the way to go. :-)
There are Python wrappers available for major open source game engines (Ogre, Irrlicht, etc.). Particularly Panda3D ought to have nice bindings.
If you'd like to have a look at .Net platform. You have the following solution:
Use C++/CLI to compile your C/C++ code into .Net assembly, the running time of this part would be as the same as your native C/C++ code.
Use any .Net language (C#, F#, IronPython) to develop high-level stuff using the low level library. For pure number crunching, C#/F# is usually 2-4 times slower than native C code, which is still far faster than Python. For non-number crunching tasks, C#/F# could sometimes match the speed of native code.
Related
I know that many large-scale applications such as video games are created using multiple langages. For example, it's likely the game/physics engines are written in C++ while gameplay tasks, GUI are written in something like Python or Lua.
I understand why this division of roles is done; use lower-level languages for tasks that require extreme optimization, tweaking, efficiency and speed, while using higher-level languages to speed up production time, reduce nasty bugs ect.
Recently, I've decided to undertake a larger personal project and would like to divy-up parts of the project similar to above. At this point in time, I'm really confused about how this interoperability between languages (especially compiled vs interpreted) works.
I'm quite familiar with the details of going from ANSCII code test to loading an executable, when written in something like C/C++. I'm very curious at how something like a video game, built from many different languages, works. This is a large/broad question, but specifically I'm interested in:
How does the code-level logic work? I.e. how can I call Python code from a C++ program? Especially since they don't support the same built-in types?
What does the program image look like? From what I can tell, a video game is running in a single process, so what does the runtime image look like when running a C/C++ program that calls a Python function?
If calling code from an interpreted language from a compiled program, what are the sequence of events that occur? I.e If I'm inside my compiled executable, and for some reason have a call to an interpreted language inside a loop, do I have to wait for the interpreter every iteration?
I'm actually finding a hard time finding information on what happening at the machine-level, so any help would be appreciated. Although I'm curious in general about interoperation of software, I'm specifically interested in C++ and Python interaction.
Thank you very much for any insight, even if it's just pointing me to where I can find more information.
In the specific case of python, you have basically three options (and this generally applies across the board):
Host python in C++: From the perspective of the C++ programme, the python interpreter is a C library. On the python side, you may or may not need to use something like ctypes to expose the C(++) api.
Python uses C++ code as DLLs/SOs - C++ code likely knows nothing of python, python definitely has to use a foreign function interface.
Interprocess communication - basically, two separate processes run, and they talk over a socket. These days you'd likely use some kind of web services architecture to accomplish this.
Depending on what you want to do:
Have a look at SWIG: http://www.swig.org/ It's a tool that aims to connect C/C++ code with Python, Tcl, Perl, Ruby, etc. The common use case is a Python interface (graphical or not) that will call the C/C++ code. SWIG will parse the C/C++ code in order to generate the interfaces.
Libpython: it's a lib that allows you to embed Python code. You have some examples here: http://docs.python.org/3.0/extending/embedding.html
is there anything similar to unity but with the difference that instead of javascript I can use C++?
It is funny, I was looking to learn a little bit of unity as I seen it as requirement for some postings... and I found this question.
I think Ogre3D is great... it may be what you are looking for.
here is the link ogre3d.org
Ogre3D is what I used. http://www.ogre3d.org/
It is somewhat of a misconception that Unity uses Javascript. The so-called Javascript used in Unity is actually a dialect of Javascript that is CLI-compatible and is not exactly the same as the official Javascript. Also, you are not limited to using Javascript in Unity. You can also use C#, which is similar to C++ and Java in some ways or the less commonly used Boo script.
Personally, I would recommend using C# in Unity because it is very powerful and allows calling of native C/C++ functions via P/Invoke. Here is a link to the use of plugins:
http://unity3d.com/support/documentation/Manual/Plugins.html
Link to list of Game Engines. Please take your time to read and consider them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_game_engines
If you want accessibility offered by Unity, C++ is certainly wrong choice. Much better would be interpreted/script language, such as Python. They are more flexible in terms of working in web browser/many os-es.
If you're interested in targetting mobile platforms then Marmalade might be a good fit.
Panda3D It's not a think compared to Unity, but it can work as a web plugin, cross-platform. It has a lack of IDE, but it is opensource.
As far as I know, there is no need to use JavaScript or Boo with Unity, and there is nothing wrong with C# acting like script language ( which is really hard with C++ ).
as a unity developer, I liked to add c++ to by knowledge base as all AAA games are made by C++ and I was looking for something like unity but for CPP. the only good cpp engine is unreal that doesn't really support c++. the language is a dialect of c++ and there are big differences. like very
rare usages of pointer and references
more syntaxes like c# attributes(cpp has not attribute)
...
so you don't learn memory management. the nearest thing that I could find was COCOS2dx as the whole framework is written in pure standard c++ and many libraries like UI and Physics are already added. you can write your own engine and editor with it.
Unreal Engine uses C++
default standard is C++14
https://www.unrealengine.com
Greetings,
I am trying to decide between C and C++ for my robot. I am a 5+ year veteran of Visual Basic.NET, however I'm going with Linux (Ubuntu) on this robot, and there is a compatibility problem between Linux and the .NET Framework. I want to stick with whichever language I choose for all of my projects, so I want to make sure that I choose the most appropriate one for the task.
For reference, I will describe my current robot in progress and what I am going to do with it. I am in the process of building a full-sized R4 Astromech (yep, I'm one of those guys). I have incorporated a PC motherboard with an Intel Core 2 2.1 GHz processor, 1 GB RAM. I will be using a scratch-built parallel interface card to control the drive motors, head motor, as well as a secondary parallel interface card (going to a second parallel port) which all of the sensors (IR, Ultrasonic Ranging, Visual Recognition via webcam, etc.) will be going to. Commands will be given using speech recognition (currently have a VB.NET scratch-built recognition program that I will be adapting to the new language).
Given the specifications and desired goals listed above, would I be better off with C or C++? I greatly appreciate any suggestions that you might have.
Thanks!
Thaskalas
What do you mean by a compatibility problem? Have you looked at Mono? It's an open-source implementation of the .NET libraries. It's geared toward C# not VB.NET but if you're more comfortable in a .NET environment use that. Speed isn't really an issue here as a Core2Duo is plenty fast for what you need to do.
If Mono won't work for you, I'd recommend C++. There are a lot more libraries out there for C++ (or at least, I am familiar with more, e.g. Boost), which can use most C libraries too. There's no real speed penalty for using C++. While using C wouldn't be bad per-se, C++ has some benefits and no drawbacks, so it's probably the better choice.
I would recommend using ROS. It will let you get started with a sophisticated Inter-Process Communications manager, as well as a large library of sophisticated robotics code, including multiple implementations of SLAM and other critical robotics algorithms. ROS also lets you program in multiple languages, including C, C++, and Python, so you aren't stuck with one language or another down the road.
I would also recommend C++ and ROS. In our company we're migrating to it, because there's so many people working on it, expanding it, and adding lots of cool features.
With this, you can forget about implementing most of the basic low-level stuff and start working on what you intend to research.
It's really easy to set up and start developing.
Since you're running Linux on it, I'd recommend a split approach, where you do the lower-level (device interface, where you may need fast performance) stuff in C (or C++), and the higher level stuff in a modern language like C# (using Mono) or Java, or even Python.
Python especially is hugely expressive, has a large set of libraries, and has a pretty straightforward C interface.
Writing your high-level control stuff in a low-level language like C/C++ will get old fast (IMHO). Robots should be fun!
Have you considered D? It's a fairly new language, is compiled to native code and can link directly to C. (The entire C standard library is even available from D, and bindings to the POSIX API are included in the standard library.) Basically all you need to do to use any C library from D is compile it with a C compiler and translate the function prototypes, constant declarations, etc. in the header file.
D is low-level enough that an experimental kernel is written in it, but has modern features like garbage collection (though manual memory management is still permitted), builtin strings and arrays, and more advanced/easier to use template metaprogramming facilities than C++. The biggest disadvantage is lack of a mature toolchain and libraries for enterprise-y things, but for your purposes that probably doesn't matter. BTW, if you need to do a bunch of matrix manipulation and stuff, there's the SciD project, which provides nice templated wrappers over LAPACK and BLAS.
Use C++. You have the space. You can use it "as a better C" to start with.
C++ is a bigger tool bag; why would you not want that!? You need not use all the tools, but with C you'd have no choice. Most importantly with C++ you have the choice of using both C and C++ third-party libraries.
I was thinking of trying OpenCV for a project and noticed that it had C, C++ and Python.
I am trying to figure out whether I should use C++, C or Python -- and would like to use whatever has the best OpenCV support.
Just from looking at the index page for the various documentation it looks like the C++ bindings might have more features than the others? Is this true?
If C++ has more bindings, it seems that would be a more obvious choice for me, but I was just curious if it really has more features, etc than the others?
Thanks!
Actually Python binding was finished starting with release 2.2. So i would go with python if i were you, because the performance will be almost the same anyway as you are using c libraries in both cases. However python will get you there faster, safely and you will spend more time on your algorithm rather than getting things to build and run not mentioning memory management hassles
The Python interface is still being developed whereas the C++ interface (especially with the new Mat class) is quite mature. If you're comfortable in C++, I would highly recommend using it - else, you can start using Python and contribute back any features you think OpenCV needs :)
I think it depends how proficient you are in C++. The Mat interface does appear more modern than the old IPLImage C interface. The problem I'm having is that most of the examples you'll find on the web, or even here on stackoverflow are for the C interface (e.g. cvCvtColor), not for the C++ interface. So I'm really struggling to port the C examples to C++.
Even if you're very proficient in C or C++, you should use python to speed up your development (I should guess a 4x factor). Performance are really quite the same.
I'm learning C++ because it's a very flexible language. But for internet things like Twitter, Facebook, Delicious and others, Python seems a much better solution.
Is it possible to integrate C++ and Python in the same project?
Interfacing Python with C/C++ is not an easy task.
Here I copy/paste a previous answer on a previous question for the different methods to write a python extension. Featuring Boost.Python, SWIG, Pybindgen...
You can write an extension yourself in C or C++ with the Python C-API.
In a word: don't do that except for learning how to do it. It's very difficult to do it correctly. You will have to increment and decrement references by hand and write a lot of code just to expose one function, with very few benefits.
Swig:
pro: you can generate bindings for many scripting languages.
cons: I don't like the way the parser works. I don't know if they've made some progress but two years ago the C++ parser was quite limited. Most of the time I had to copy/paste my .h headers to add some % characters and to give extra hints to the swig parser.
I also needed to deal with the Python C-API from time to time for (not so) complicated type conversions.
I'm not using it anymore.
Boost.Python:
pro:
It's a very complete library. It allows you to do almost everything that is possible with the C-API, but in C++. I never had to write a C-API code with this library. I also never encountered a bug due to the library. Code for bindings either works like a charm or refuses to compile.
It's probably one of the best solutions currently available if you already have some C++ library to bind. But if you only have a small C function to rewrite, I would probably try with Cython.
cons: if you don't have a precompiled Boost.Python library you're going to use Bjam (sort of a replacement of make). I really hate Bjam and its syntax.
Python libraries created with B.P tend to become obese. It also takes a lot of time to compile them.
Py++: it's Boost.Python made easy. Py++ uses a C++ parser to read your code and then generates Boost.Python code automatically. You also have a great support from its author (no it's not me ;-) ).
cons: only the problems due to Boost.Python itself.
Edit this project looks discontinued. While probably still working it may be better to consider switching.
Pybindgen:
It generates the code dealing with the C-API. You can either describe functions and classes in a Python file, or let Pybindgen read your headers and generate bindings automatically (for this it uses pygccxml, a python library wrote by the author of Py++).
cons: it's a young project, with a smaller team than Boost.Python. There are still some limitations: you cannot expose your own C++ exceptions, you cannot use multiple inheritance for your C++ classes.
Anyway it's worth trying!
Pyrex and Cython:
Here you don't write real C/C++ but a mix between Python and C. This intermediate code will generate a regular Python module.
Edit Jul 22 2013: Now Py++ looks discontinued, I'm now looking for a good alternative. I'm currently experimenting with Cython for my C++ library. This language is a mix between Python and C. Within a Cython function you can use either Python or C/C++ entities (functions, variables, objects, ...).
Cython is quite easy to learn, has very good performance, and you can even avoid C/C++ completely if you don't have to interface legacy C++ libraries.
However for C++ it comes with some problems. It is less "automagic" than Py++ was, so it's probably better for stable C++ API (which is now the case of my library). The biggest problem I see with Cython is with C++ polymorphism. With Py++/boost:python I was able to define a virtual method in C++, override it in Python, and have the Python version called within C++. With Cython it's still doable but you need to explicitly use the C-Python API.
Edit 2017-10-06:
There is a new one, pybind11, similar to Boost.Python but with some potential advantages. For example it uses C++11 language features to make it simpler to create new bindings. Also it is a header-only library, so there is nothing to compile before using it, and no library to link.
I played with it a little bit and it was indeed quite simple and pleasant to use. My only fear is that like Boot.Python it could lead to long compilation time and large libraries. I haven't done any benchmark yet.
Yes, it is possible, encouraged and documented. I have done it myself and found it to be very easy.
Python/C API Reference Manual - the API used by C and C++ programmers who want to write extension modules or embed Python.
Extending and Embedding the Python Interpreter
describes how to write modules in C or C++ to extend the Python interpreter with new modules. Those modules can define new functions but also new object types and their methods. The document also describes how to embed the Python interpreter in another application, for use as an extension language. Finally, it shows how to compile and link extension modules so that they can be loaded dynamically (at run time) into the interpreter, if the underlying operating system supports this feature.
Try Pyrex. Makes writing C++ extensions for Python easier.
We use swig very successfully in our product.
Basically swig takes your C++ code and generates a python wrapper around it.
I'd recommend looking at how PyTorch does their integration.
See this:
Extending Python with C or C++
"It is quite easy to add new built-in modules to Python, if you know how to program in C. Such extension modules can do two things that can't be done directly in Python: they can implement new built-in object types, and they can call C library functions and system calls.
To support extensions, the Python API (Application Programmers Interface) defines a set of functions, macros and variables that provide access to most aspects of the Python run-time system. The Python API is incorporated in a C source file by including the header "Python.h". "
http://www.python.org/doc/2.5.2/ext/intro.html
PS It's spelt "integrate" :)
I've used PyCxx http://cxx.sourceforge.net/ in the past and i found that it was very good.
It wraps the python c API in a very elegant manner and makes it very simple to use.
It is very easy to write python extension in c++. It is provided with clear examples so it is easy to get started.
I've really enjoyed using this library and I do recommend it.
It depends on your portability requirements. I've been struggling with this for a while, and I ended up wrapping my C++ using the python API directly because I need something that works on systems where the admin has only hacked together a mostly-working gcc and python installation.
In theory Boost.Python should be a very good option, since Boost is available (almost) everywhere. Unfortunately, if you end up on a OS with an older default python installation (our collaboration is stuck with 2.4), you'll run into problems if you try to run Boost.Python with a newer version (we all use Python 2.6). Since your admin likely didn't bother to install a version of Boost corresponding to every python version, you'll have to build it yourself.
So if you don't mind possibly requiring some Boost setup on every system your code runs on, use Boost.Python. If you want code that will definitely work on any system with Python and a C++ compiler, use the Python API.
Another interesting way to do is python code generation by running python itself to parse c++ header files. OpenCV team successfully took this approach and now they have done exact same thing to make java wrapper for OpenCV library. I found this created cleaner Python API without limitation caused by a certain library.
You can write Python extensions in C++. Basically Python itself is written in C and you can use that to call into your C code. You have full access to your Python objects. Also check out Boost.Python.