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I`m currently studying C++ and want to learn another language.
For work I use C# + ASP (just started learning it, actually), but I want something "less Microsoft" and powerful.
I have heard Python is a popular and powerful language, not so complicated as C++. But many people mentioned it was hard for them to get back to C++/Java from Python because they started thinking in it, get used to absence of memory management, etc.
What do you recommend?
There's no right or wrong answer, really. But I think you'll benefit more from learning Python. Given the similarities between C# and C++, you'll learn a different way of thinking from Python. The more ways you learn to think about a problem, the better it makes you as a programmer, regardless of the language.
The benefit of going from a more static language to a dynamic language is to change your programming paradigm -- it's not a matter of becoming "lazy" so much as realizing new ways of accomplishing things, which will make you better in any language.
Well, I've learnt Python after C/C++, Java and C#. Python is a great language, and its simplicity and consistency have improved the way I code. It has also helped me think more clearly about the algorithms underlying my code. I could go on about the benifits it brought me, instead I'll summarize the reason to learn it ->
Learning a new lanuage doesn't take away, it adds to your programming skill and keeps you sharp by teaching you to shift between the frames of mind that each language requires.
So go out there and learn Python. Your code will improve(TM).
P.S.
1.You'll lose C++ (or any other language) skills, if you neglect their upkeep and maintainance. Thats entirely up to you.
2.Programmer (intelligent) laziness is a virtue.
Many would argue that you would benefit from learning Python before C++.
The syntax hurdles are much, much lower;
Debugging is much more friendly
There are a plethora of libraries---batteries included, you know. It's easy to
experiment with web scraping, XML, etc. in Python. Again, the barriers to entry
in C++ are much higher.
It's still good to learn C/C++, because of its close connection to the machine. But a new programmer can learn an awful lot from exploring in Python.
I don't think that "Python makes you lazy" (nice title, anyway!).
On the contrary, in programming as in life, knowing more than one language is important; I think you'll find python amusing and sufficiently different from C++ or C# so that the languages will not get mixed in your head...
Python is complementary to C++ and easy to integrate with C++. (As evidence of this claim, the C++ gurus from Boost use Python.)
And as you said, Python gives you a way to get a perspective outside the Microsoft orbit. But even there, if you need to integrate Python with MS tools, there's IronPython.
Learning more languages can only make you a better developer, regardless of their approach. Besides, your experience with C++ (or, at least C) will come in handy for writing high-performance parts of your applications using Python's C API, which lets "raw" C and C++ code intermingle nicely with the pure Python stuff.
I still write code in Objective-C (1.0... before memory management) and Python on a daily basis. The variety is actually fun, rather than confusing; keeps things from being boring.
Flex your brain and improve your skill set. Give a functional language a whirl.
I learned C/C++, Java, Python & C# in that order.
The two I actually invariably end up using are C++ & Python; I find the niche Java & C# occupy between them to be too narrow to feel the need to use them much (at least for the stuff I do).
I also think I didn't really "get" C++ functors and boost::bind until I'd been exposed to Python.
Many languages are quite similar to others, but to move between imperitave and functional / dynamic and static / Object and Procedural languages you do need to train yourself to think within the constraints of the language you are using. Since most projects are at least a few weeks, this is generally not a problem after the first few days.
You will find it more difficult to switch away from a language+environment you enjoy in your after-hours / hobby development.
C, Macro Assembler => basically the same - difference is mainly libraries
C++, Java, C#, Delphi => basically the same paradigm - you learn quickly how to leverage the features of the specific language and adopt concepts from one syntax to another. It's basically the same way of thinking, the biggest exception is how you think of memory manangement.
Python - good language, strategically a better choice than ruby, although there are other aspects of ruby that can be argued to be superior. What make python a good choice is the presence of a formal language body which keeps python environments on different platforms very compatible to one another.
If you are interested, read this http://cmdematos.com/?p=120 on making a strategic language choice.
It is up to what exactly is the kind of applications you want to program, for example for Websites that need access to databases I would go for Ruby( and Ruby on Rails framework ) , for financial applications or applications that need a lot of parallel processing I would go for a funcional programming language like Haskell, oCaml or the new F#, these last 3 wil make you a better programer even if you don't programm a lot in them , by the way c# has been lately in the latest versions adding more and more funcional programming features. I would learn Python for a security and exploits kinds of applications.
You could learn a new programming language, like python, and use it to do all the tasks you'd normally perform in your 'core' languages; or you could take a language (like python, or perl) and use it to complement your core language.
You could learn VBScript and use it to write scripts that glue your code and others together. If you want something less Microsoft, then python, perl or bash scripting would be a good idea - not just to learn how to code in the new, but also how to do things differently from the usual 'code an app' way.
From a utility perspective, it is good to learn one of the more dynamic languages like Python (or Ruby or Perl) too. Not only do they stretch your mind, but they are superior for certain kinds of tasks. If you want to manipulate text, for example, C++ is a lot harder to use than Python. It gives you another arrow in your quiver to use when appropriate.
I learned, in order:
BASIC
Pascal
Ada
(A little bit of Haskell)
Java
Python
C++
C#
I don't feel Python inhibited my ability to learn or use C++. I am glad though that I learned pointers in Pascal before encountering reference types in Java, Python and C#, because I feel it gave me a good basis to understand the idea of the differences between "value types" and "reference types". I think for me the most important of those languages are Python, Haskell and C++. All of them complement each other, and although there are times I'm working in one and wish I had a feature from another, on the whole I think I benefit greatly from a deeper understanding of things like type systems, object orientation and metaprogramming by seeing the different ways these languages approach these things.
Try LISP instead (or afterwards, it's your call). You are at least partially right, though. using Python for a while makes you not want to go back to a statically typed and compiled language. It's just sooo much more comfortable not to have to please the compiler like ALL THE TIME ;). And yet another aspect is the readability of python code, which is awesome.
It is true. After learning python, everything else will seem like too much effort for the same amount of real work being done. You'll get used to the clean, small syntax and the freedom of GC. You will enjoy working in list comps, generators, etc. You'll start to think in python and C++ and Java will be like building a ship in a bottle one twiggy little stick at a time.
But since it's that much easier, doesn't it tempt you to try it all the more?
I think it is always good to know several programming languages. I've learned c++ at school and I've used it a lot in the past years because it is really a standard in the industry. I've learned python by my own and I am using it to make a lot of nice tools that would be too long to write in c++.
Python has just a very positive influence on my c++ skills. It gives another way to think.
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Closed 10 years ago.
I am relatively new to programming and want to be able to make native C++ programs for Linux and Windows.
I am just wondering as a beginner should I first of all learn low level languages such as C and assembly in vim or should I just straight out start in an IDE with C++?
If you want to learn C++, learn C++. Learning C or assembly language first is not only a waste of time, but usually teaches relatively poor habits that you need to work at un-learning before you use C++ well.
That's not to say that knowing C or assembly language makes it impossible to use C++ well -- but each requires decidedly different mind-sets, so it creates extra work.
If your ultimate goal is to learn C++, it is not a prerequisite that you learn C first. You can, but you don't have to.
The bottom line is, do what you feel most comfortable doing.
C++ is not (really) a high-level programming language. You're still manually managing your memory and getting undefined environment-specific behavior whenever you make a minor programming mistake. Besides that, C++ is a very unfriendly language for new programmers because it is both overly complex and (in my opinion) horribly designed.
I recommend starting with an actual high-level language like Java, Python or C# in combination with a fancy IDE. Starting with C is also an option if you want to concentrate more on low-level aspects rather than general programming techniques and paradigms.
Also you don't have to learn vim if you want to start programming, a simple editor such as gedit or Notepad++ will also work perfectly fine. An IDE specifically designed for your language is probably the most comfortable, though.
EDIT: As Jerry Coffin has correctly pointed out, this advice isn't really helpful if your goal is to program C++ applications. Although I'd still recommend starting with an easier (high-level) language to obtain general programming skills before you start with C++. If C++ isn't absolutely neccessary for the thing you want to achieve, it also isn't a bad idea to reconsider whether you actually want to use that language.
If you want to learn C++, start with C++. You don't need to learn C first; it would actually be somewhat counterproductive, since you'd have to unlearn some stuff when you moved to C++.
C and C++ are different languages, with different goals and philosophies. A well-written C++ program will not look or behave much like a well-written C program.
Once you get comfortable with high-level C++ features, then you can start delving into the lower level details.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
-Sir Issac Newton
Do not reinvent the wheel.
start as high and abstracted from the core as you can, and only revisit the core when there is no other way to advance in your road.
Your question seems to me being more about learning programming.
Language choice may be secondary to learning the programing paradigms/concepts.
So if programming is your focus, then you may first learn object oriented programming (OOP) concepts, so that you don't have to "adopt" them in a way people coming from procedural approach often do. Then, if needed, you may dig into procedural way and some C idioms/tricks and low-level approaches.
OOP can be taught in C++ as in Java etc. does not matter on that stage.
Once your mindset is "oriented", then the actual programming will be more about using existing libraries (APIs), which in fact will require more learning than the language itself.
So my advice is to learn OOP concepts first, then review your future language preferences. Have fun!!
Javascript is the first language I learned and I feel lucky that it was. With it I was able to skip past alot of the intricacies and barriers of other languages like static typing, pointers, and compiling. With javascript, you don't even have to install anything, just go here and you can begin trying things out: http://jsfiddle.net/X4PpW/ .
After I had a strong grasp of Javascript, understanding the concept of using pointers and classes in C was easy for me. Another good language to start with would be Python.
Also, what do you intend on making? Not all desktop apps have to be written in C. In fact some new frameworks out there borrow ideas from web applications or even allow embedding HTML from websites into your app.
Games: Unity3d http://unity3d.com/ (Games written in this can be ported to mobile devices or the Web but requires a plugin)
General app with UI : QT http://qt.nokia.com/products/
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I have worked for the last 10 years in Networking & Web Development and always had an interest in programming. When I was in School I started in Basic, (To date myself) the other languages at that time were Cobol & Fortran, Where should I start in 2009? is C+ or C++ a good place? Is it better to Start Java or .net? I'm in need of some direction from Coders, Programmers, developers who can point me in the right direction. The technology changes in the blink of an eye, I'd like a good starting point to begin learning & understanding relevant code.
I think your best bet is to learn Python because
It is simple and easy language to learn
Python is capable of doing what any other main stream language can do
Python is also a very good choice for web development, with good frameworks like Django, Pylons, Turbogears etc
Google uses Python and using google appengine you could be able to quickly write web applications.
Python is also great for cross-platform desktop applications using wxPython, PyQT, Tkinter,gtk etc
Python has very rich set of libraries and frameworks e.g. PIL for imaging, numpy for computing, twisted for networking etc etc etc
Python has implementation in Java and .NET so you can program for those platforms in Python
I agree with most of the posts on here but I would like to add my own slant on this. Learning a programming language should change the way you think about programming and allow you to make useful programs. The list below is a mix of easy to learn (the basics) and helps you think about programming problems
Python it makes programming fun and easy. You will learn a lot about programming and make some cool programs in a relatively small amount of code. Will help you think about programs at a higher level than C which is a good thing.
C it's the basis of a massive number of languages and will teach you a good deal of stuff that is now considered low level. Stuff that will be useful for any programmer to know.
Haskell its a functional language which will have you thinking about programming from a different perspective. It is very useful to know this stuff - can help reduce many bugs.
I would start by gaining a basic knowledge. i.e. be able to make a text based Connect 4 game in each of these three languages (in order). Which books help you do that is largely personal preference.
Programming is not only about the code and the language. It's about everything you do at the computer read The Pragmatic Programmer and Code Complete 2. Extra points for SICP and Hacker's Delight
From there if you want to know more about how programming languages work by writing a interpreter for Scheme (by reading SICP again) And/or look at FORTH. Or learn more about how to program by writing more and more programs. Once you get basic knowledge write, then re-write as many different computer programs as you can.
It all depends on your focus.
If you're looking at getting into straight development, I would recommend C#, Java or C++. (C++ is a learning curve though, and would be great to "learn", whereas C# and Java will get you started a lot quicker in doing "cool" things)
If you're looking at Web Development, look into PHP (as it's free to setup and run with) or ASP.NET (which will link to platform at a point, as you use C# or VB.NET syntax).
If you're looking at something different, have a look at ERLANG or Prolog, or those types, however I don't recommend it for a start, as it's not AS quick to get results that you might be looking for.
You'll get a dozen different people all pushing you to learn their favourite language.
When it comes down to it though it doesn't make a lot of difference. As long as you pick something that is modern and object oriented you should be fine.
Assuming you are talking about programming and not web development, any of the following would be a perfectly acceptable first language:
C#
Java
Python
C++
Ruby
VB.net (not VB6)
There are advantages and disadvantages to each; there probably aren't as many jobs in Python and Ruby, C++ is harder for a beginner, but it's stuff you need to know eventually, C#/Java hide you from that hard stuff to begin with, but like I said you'll need to learn it eventually. VB.net is derived from BASIC syntax so you might feel at home to begin with, but a lot of programmers prefer C style syntax.
If you have a specific focus in mind, then that might dictate some choices over others, but if you are just out to learn programming, then any will do. If you are ever planning on being a good programmer you will naturally learn several.
Well, technically, technology doesn't change in the blink of an eye. For instance:
Lisp: Came out in 1958. It's always had a cult following in various fields, but it's becoming more hip now with the clojure variant.
C: Came out in 1972. Obviously influences C++, Java, JavaScript (as does lisp), and still has a strong following.
Smalltalk: Came out in the 70's. Now it's hip via the ruby language.
I'm not suggesting you learn these, just that if you had learned them in the past, you'd still have relevant skills. Many of the modern languages actually take aspects from past languages. JavaScript, for instance, is a scripting language with object oriented aspects (Smalltalk, C++), functional aspects (lisp), and the syntax of C.
Learn what you're interested in, and find out what will help you accomplish your goals . But learn one and you can learn many.
The question is what you want to achieve in learning a programming language.
Do you want to get used to the basics? Then you might want to try a scripting language like Ruby or PHP. I would recommend Ruby as it's really easy to learn and advance (e.g. with IRB).
Want to write "fat" (desktop) applications? Then you should stick to C++, Java or C#.
For web applications you should use Ruby on Rails, Django (Python) or a similar web framework for the language of your choice. So you should already know a bit of the language.
C
Because it's not difficult to learn. TO LEARN, not to do "cool things".
Because is the languague that any good programmer SHOULD KNOW at least if he wants to know what's happening in the machine.
When you've learned C, then you should go to OOP: I would recommend C++ or Java, but there are a lot of OPP languages (C#, .Net), so you can choose.
Java, C++ may change a lot, but not C. So, first learn C.
Furthermore, if you want to do some Web Development, the step C -> PHP is trivial, really.
PD: C is not my favourite language, but I know that if you learn C, you will be able to learn any language you want in very few time.
Nobody can really tell you which language you should learn. Just try a few of them and then decide for yourself. Just take the one that you like the most.
Of course I wouldn't start learning a language that's already "dead", but every modern language is good for something. What you should actually do is to decide in which area of programming you want to code - so, for example, would you like to develop desktop or web applications, should the program run on any platform or are you fine with just windows or just linux or whatever. When you have decided on that, take a look at the languages that are commonly used for the area you choose and try all/many of them. Then take the language you like the most.
Read and do the assignments in The C Programming Language before anything else. It will really help you get a solid grip on fundamentals and some of the trickier issues like memory management. Then go on to OOP whether it be Java, .NET, C++ or Python.
If you start in C you'll have a tougher time starting out but will learn a lot more by the time you understand the language as compared to starting with another language. C won't teach you Object-Oriented Programming though, so after C it would be easy to move to C++ and learn the differences and then about Objects. A good book to learn C from is The C Programming Language.
Or you could go a route where you start off easier so things aren't so frustrating to start, learn a bit less, and then slowly pick up more and more about programming. You could start with Python and understand the basics of programming very quickly, and then start expanding what you know by learning other languages.
I personally started with C++, which then made a lot of other higher level languages, like Python, super easy to learn. If you want to start out learning more of the basics of programming I would probably recommend C++ first as it is a bit easier than C, and then you can learn C afterwards and it will be a bit easier, and then it'll be super easy to pick up something like Python, Java, Ruby, etc.
I think choosing a language or technology is overrated, especially when you have to learn fundamental things like object orientation or algorithms. Try to focus on the basics first and especially try to use more than one language.
In order to understand the concepts you should at least learn a dynamic language (Ruby, Python, PHP) and a "traditional" one (I would recommend either Java or C#). Functional languages are all at rage now and provide a different view onto programming than the latter two approaches.
New technologies are always nice to know, but in the end a good set of fundamental knowledge will empower you to learn them faster than they disappear.
I would say there is a massive difference between a Programming language & a Programming Language + Framework(s), usually when people say Learn Language X they are probably thinking about the Framework(s).
So if you want to actually Learn to program, try to learn the language with as little framework 'baggage' as possible, perhaps C?
Once you have gained enough working knowledge of a programming language (eg variables, loops, conditions) then move onto more broader subjects like OOP, then start looking at functional style etc.
From personnel experience I would say try and learn as many programming languages as possible (it actually gets easier the more you learn) but you will never master them all, just have enough to get by.
You will then realise that the language is the easy part, the framework and related methodology is what your actually learning when going from one language to another.
Much as I love Delphi, I think I would suggest either Java or Python. Why? Assuming you are learning on your own, I think these languages have the clearest texts and web sites for learning on your own (esp. Java).
Seeing that you're coming from two different fields (networking and web development) you can either work your way top down or bottom up in terms of high- or low level languages. If you think you want to make use of your networking knowledge (which I assume is pretty close to hardware), you might want to start with something like C, maybe Unix network programming. If you want to build on your web developer skills, you might want to try something more high level. I think Python is a good suggestion, but also Java - maybe in combination with JSP. C# would be a good choice too in my eyes.
Don't forget about platform. Are you most interested in web, mobile, or desktop development? As for languages, there are a ton out there and you'll never be able to learn them all. So I think you should determine what your goal is and whether you plan to program for fun, profit, or both. But most important of all, be sure the journey is fun for you and that you're building stuff you love.
A good reason to learn Java - besides the fact it's currently the most popular language - is that the Java Trails tutorials are really good, and really far-reaching.
C# is very, very similar to Java in most regards; also interesting to learn, and it's gaining marketshare while Java slows down.
Other than those two, I'd also strongly consider Python, for being easy to learn and very, very useful personally and professionally.
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I'm thinking of trying to make some simple 2d games, but I've yet to choose a language. A lot of people recommend either C++ with SDL or python with pygame. I keep hearing that developement on C++ is fairly slow, and developement time with Python is fairly fast.
Anyways, could anyone elaborate on this? What exactly makes development in C++ so time consuming? The programs I've made have been Project Euler-style in that they're very short and math-based, so I have no experience in larger projects.
There are two things that are relevant between C++ and Python that will affect your time-to-develop any project including a game. There are the languages themselves and the libraries. I've played with the SDL to some extent and peeked at PyGame and for your specific instance I don't think the libraries are going to be much of a factor. So I'll focus on the languages themselves.
Python is a dynamically-typed, garbage-collected language. C++ is a statically-typed, non-garbage-collected language. What this means is that in C++ a lot of your development time will be spent managing memory and dealing with your type structure. This affords you a lot of power, but the question is do you really need it?
If you're looking to write a simple game with some basic graphics and some good gameplay, then I don't think you truly need all the power that C++ will give you. If you're looking to write something that will push the envelope, be the next A-list game, be the next MMO, fit on a console or a handheld device, then you will likely need the power that C++ affords.
The power of Python is in it's ability to allow you to focus more on the problem than having to deal with testing low-level issues such as memory allocation. I can't count how many times days of development have been wasted tracking down memory leaks in C or C++. An advantage of all high level languages.
Python is very easy to learn compared to C++,so you can be up to speed a lot quicker in doing basic programming tasks. Therefore, you'll move quicker into advanced tasks as well.
C++ has a lot of power but has many ways to shoot yourself in the foot compared to Python(not saying that can't be done in Python).
The compile/debug cycle can get old sometimes in C++ depending on what you're trying to do. Although technically speaking, everytime you run a Python script it's getting "compiled" per se, it's just a quicker cycle. A good IDE can help alleviate this is in Python by automatically checking your code for syntax errors while you type it out.
If you have some code you want to test inside a larger project, it's a hassle sometimes to isolate it for testing. Whereas a good Python interpreter such as IPython, makes it easy to test a small bit of code and see how the language behaves and paste it into a file.
Python also interfaces very well with existing C/C++ code through many numerous ways. That way if a new whizbang Python module you created is really slow, then you can soup it up in C/C++ then wrap it up with Python through ctypes, Boost::Python, or SWIG.
And most of all, Python comes with a great standard library that has a lot of stuff figured out for you. It's just a matter of putting the pieces altogether! It has a great community behind it, so if it's not in the standard library, there's a good chance someone out there has solved the problem (PyGame, Numpy, SciPy, Pyserial, PyWin, etc.) for you. You can just google it, grab it and plop the code right into your program...away you go!
I've heard these complaints before about C++, but the fact is, programming in any language with which you are unfamiliar is time consuming.
A good C++ programmer can probably crank out the app much faster than an okay Python programmer and visa versa.
I think C++ often gets a bad reputation because it allows you get much lower level - pointers, memory management, etc, and if you aren't used to thinking about such things, it can take a bit of time. If you are used to working in that environment, it can become second nature.
Unless choice of language is something imposed upon you by your company, team, client, etc. I usually recommend that folks go with the language they are most comfortable with OR most interested in learning more about. If speed is the issue you are concerned with, look at the learning curve for each language and your past experience. C++ tends to have a higher learning curve, but that too depends on the person.
Kindof a non-answer I know.
Python has some big advantages over programming languages like C++. I myself have programmed a lot with C++, C and other programming languages. Lately I am also programming in Python and I got to like it very much!
You can have a quick start with Python. Since it is rather simple to learn (at least with some programming experience and enough abstract thinking), you can have fast successes. Also the script-like behaviour makes starting easy and it is also possible, to quickly test some things in the integrated shell. This can also be good for debugging.
The whole language is packed with powerful features and it has a good and rather complete set of libraries.
There was the argument that with the "right library" you can develop as quickly with C++ as with Python. This might (partly) be, but I myself have never experienced it, because such libraries are rare. I had also a big library at hand, but still lacked many valuable features in C++. The so called "standard template library" STL makes things even worse in my opinion. It is a really powerful library. But it is also that complex, that it adds the complexity of an additional programming language to C++. I really disliked it and in a company I worked in, much worktime was lost, because the compiler was not able to give useful error-output in case of errors in the STL.
Python is different. Instead of putting the "speed of the programm" on the throne -- sacrificing all else (as C++ and especially the STL does) -- it puts "speed of development" first. The language gives you a powerful toolkit and it is accompanied by a huge library. When you need speed, you can also implement time critical things in C or C++ and call it from Python.
There is also at least one big online Game implemented in Python.
It's time consuming because in C++ you have to deal with more low-level tasks.
In Python you are free to focus on the development of the actual game instead of dealing with memory management etc.
there are many things that make c++ longer to develop in. Its lower level, has pointers, different libraries for different systems, the type system, and there are others I am sure I am missing.
It takes about the same amount of time to write the same code in pretty much all of the high level languages. The win is that in certain languages it is easier to use other peoples code. In a lot of Python/Ruby/Perl apps, you write 10% of the code and import libraries to do the other 90%. That is harder in C/C++ since the libraries have different interfaces and other incompatibilities.
C++ vs Python is a pretty personal choice. Personally I feel I lose more time with not having the C/Java class system (more run time errors/debugging time, don't have anywhere near as good auto completion, need to do more documentation and optimization) than I gain (not having to write interfaces/stub function and being able to worry less about memory managment). Other people feel the exact opposite.
In the end it probably depends on the type of game. If your processor intensive go to C++ (maybe with a scripting language if it makes sense). Otherwise use whatever language you prefer
I'd focus more on choosing a framework to build your game on than trying to pick a language. Unless the goal is to learn how games work inside and out, you're going to want to use a framework. Try out a couple, and pick the one that meets your requirements and feels nice to you.
Once you've picked the framework, the language choice becomes easy - use the language for which the framework is written.
There are many options for game frameworks in C++ - pygame works for python. There are many that work with other languages/tools as well (including .NET, Lua, etc.)
Short Answer
Yes python is faster in terms of development time. There are many case studies in real life that show this. However, you don't want to do a 3d graphics engine in Python.
Do you have any programming experience at all? If not, I would start with Python which is easier to learn, even if it is not a better tool for game development. If you decide you want to program games for living, you'll probably need to switch to C++ at some point.
Note that SDL is currently slow, because it basically doesn't use hardware acceleration.
SFML is an alternative of choice, and is available in Python too.
Why limit yourself to those two options? With C# or Java you get access to a huge collection of useful libraries plus garbage collection and (in the case of C#) JIT compiling.
Furthermore, you're saying that you're looking to do game development, but from your task description it sounds like you're also looking at coding your own engine. Is that part of the exercise? Otherwise you should definitely take a look at the available Indie engines out there - lots are cheap of not free and open source.
Needless to say, working from an existing engine is definitely faster than going from scratch :)
Some people would argue that development time is slower in C++ when compared to Python.
Wouldn't it be the case that the time you saved in developing an application (or game) in python is the time you gonna use in improving performance after its developed? and in the later part when you have least options left?
It largely depends upon the purpose for which you are going to develop the application.
If you are thinking for an enterprise application in which case it is going to be hit by millions (web-app) or an application with focus on low-footprint, faster loading into memory, faster execution, then your choice is C++.
If you are projecting your application for not being use at this level, surely Python is the choice to go for.
Maintainability is considerable, but disciplined code can overcome this.
Largely depends upon long term projections. On how serious and critical the application is going to be.
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I have tried to keep up with C++ since they introduced 1998 ANSI/ISO C++. I absorbed the new concepts and tried to understand them. I learned about exception handling, templates, and namespaces. I've read about the new cast mechanisms and worked with the STL library.
All of these concepts required a lot of energy. But now I am somewhat worried about the future of C++ when having a look at the new C++0x standard.
Things are getting more and more complicated. This language is becoming a monster.
I'm not sure that I want to keep up with the language anymore, since I don't do my day-to-day hacking in C++ anyway. I mostly use interpreted or bytecode languages.
So why should I bother to learn this difficult, yet exceptionally powerful, language? I can do 95% of my business with Python et al. With the remaining 5%, I can deal with plain old C++ or C without hassle.
What do you think?
Everyone uses a subset of C++. For almost all application programming in C++, whether server or client side, that subset is manageable. In my opinion, the only folks that need to stay on top of absolutely every nuance of the language are the library writers -- people implementing Boost, STL, Loki, etc.
But I would absolutely use the language that fits the task. If Python is more readable and more maintainable than C++ for your job, and you don't need what C++ offers, then certainly stick with Python.
Hear what Bruce Eckel { author of the two of the so-called best C++ books } commented on C++ a few weeks ago:
That said, I hardly ever use C++
anymore. When I do, it's either
examining legacy code, or to write
performance-critical sections,
typically as small as possible to be
called from other code (my preferred
approach is to quickly write an app in
Python, then profile it and if
necessary improve performance by
calling small portions of C++ using
Python's ctypes library).
Because I was on the C++ Standards
Committee, I saw these decisions being
made. They were all extremely
carefully considered, far more so than
many of the decisions made in Java.
However, as people have rightly
pointed out, the resulting language
was complicated and painful to use and
full of weird rules that I forget as
soon as I'm away from it for a little
while -- and I figured out those rules
from first principles while I wrote
books, not just by memorizing them.
Additionally, you should read this thread and Danny Kalev's predictions on C++.
However, the growing complexity of C++ will create pressure towards splitting the language into quasi-official dialects. We can already see this trend today; it will probably intensify in the future.
EDIT:
You should take a look at this discussion, too:
C++ - Anyone else feel like C++ is getting too complicated?
First, many features of C++0x are to make the language easier to use. More readable template compile errors, more consistent initialization syntax, support for threading, which would otherwise have to rely on platform-specific libraries and so on.
So if you do use C++, I feel learning the important parts of C++0x should be a manageable task. Remember that you don't need to learn all the new features to use the language. Some features are primarily added as an aid for library implementers, for example allowing the STL to be implemented more efficiently, but which shouldn't really affect the end-users usage of the language. And some are only really necessary in very rare cases. Ignore those parts of the language.
One of their stated goals with C++0x is to avoid it becoming harder to use.
But apart from that, do you need C++? If you do your coding in other languages, why bother keeping up with C++?
You're not forced to use every feature a language provides. I don't use setjmp/longjmp in C despite it being there. I also don't use every aspect of the Java collections.
If you think the new features will make your code delivery better (faster or higher quality or both), then use them. Otherwise ignore them.
It's useful to know at a high level what they all are, if only to get you through job interviews, but half the stuff they add to languages are unnecessary in my opinion.
I never even got around to using C++ templates before switching to Java, but I knew what they were for.
It's not always about learning the latest and greatest. Software (at least at your job) is about delivery of product. That can be done in COBOL or FORTRAN if you're proficient enough at it.
No one, except maybe Bjarne and Herb Sutter, know all of C++. As you've said it's an incredibly huge language. Expecting to be able to take the entire standard + the specific implementation details of your specific compiler or compilers is truthfully unrealistic.
But you don't need to know everything in order to use C++. Instead only learn the subset of C++ that is valuable to you and your projects. It doesn't hurt to keep expanding your knowledge but unless you're writing a C++ compiler, there's no reason to know the whole thing. Even if you accomplish it, all of the people you work with won't.
So why should I bother to learn this
difficult, yet exceptionally powerful,
language? I can do 95% of my business
with python et al. With the remaining
5%, I can deal with plain old C++ or C
without hassle.
Well, for the most part you answer your own question. There is no need for you to keep up with the bleeding edge of C++ at this time.
However, the language will keep marching on. In a few years, some of the concepts you consider a bleeding-edge waste of time today will be in common use. Someday you may find during your 5% of using "plain-old C++" that some example code or code you're collaborating on uses a construct you're not familiar with. At that point, you'll need to hit the net and brush up on the new "current" C++.
Is that going to be a problem? Of course not. You're a programmer. You keep abreast of the latest programming concepts in the context of your 95% language, which also changes over time. You will likely already be quite familiar with the concepts and need only familiarize yourself with its C++ syntax when the time comes that you must use them.
Personally I hope to continue keeping up with C++, even if my career moves more toward Java or another next-gen language. Why? I would like to say because it interests me the most and because I love the complexity and expressiveness of it all. More likely, though, is just because it was my first professional language; I consider it my "native tongue".
If it does not interest you, and does not concern your job or future job, don't bother. What's wrong with that? Nothing.
Good answers.
Computer makers compete for buyers, software competes for your disk space, and languages compete for users. They do this by trying to snag each other's features.
I'm wondering how long before we see Fortran come out with lambda expressions :-)
I am hard-pressed to find a single instance where C++0x has been made more complex than C++98. There are two things which really are complex:
Concepts.
the Memory Model
but the first one has been removed again (thankfully; standardizing unimplemented features has never worked out in C++, witness throw specifications, extern templates, auto_ptr, ...), and the second isn't really something that a modern programming language can escape. It's been externally induced by Intel & Co helpfully breaking your programs to make them run faster.
The rest is just fixing annoyances that every C++ programmer has been frequently hitting in the last decades.
As a side note: I find it ... amusing ... to see how languages such as C# get packed with a database query language (LINQ) and C++ is objurgated as being bloated.
You don't need to know every standard that comes out by heart. It does help to know about the big picture though. The 5% that you do code in may have you reinvent the occasional wheel. Depending on how much time, importance that 5% has (think Pareto) you need to take a call.
Also, any particular reason (like legacy code dependency) why you can't move that 5% to python?
First try attending a course on c++0x and make your firm pay for that :)
Our brains can fit amazing amounts of junk-knowledge. Instead of cursing and having programmer-wtf-moments we should first learn from program users and listen to other people's opinions/knowhows. Knowledge transfers much faster that way.
My suggestion would be to learn the new keywords of c++0x ( && FTW) but not bother trying to learn the entire lib. Use python for w/e you want, possibly C# for apps, then use C++(0x) when you need to do something powerful. and ask stackoverflow & google about the new container when prototyping.
You dont need to use a select few language,
I have been learning C++ for a while now, I find it very powerful. But, the problem is the the level of abstraction is not much and I have to do memory management myself.
What are the languages that I can use which uses a higher level of abstraction.
Java, C#, Ruby, Python and JavaScript are probably the big choices before you.
Java and C# are not hugely different languages. This big difference you'll find from C++ is memory management (i.e. objects are automatically freed when they are no longer referenced). You would chose these if you were interested in desktop style applications, or keen on static typing (and you'd probably choose between them based on how you feel towards Microsoft and the Windows platform). In both cases you'll find much richer standard libraries than you'll be used to from C++.
Python and Ruby take a step away from static typing, into a world where you can call and method on any object (and fail at runtime if it's not there). That is both a blessing (a lot less boilerplate code) and a curse (the compiler can't catch those errors for you anymore). Once again, you'll find they have richer standard libraries, and are higer level again than Java / C#. Performance is the main downfall, with Python being somewhat faster than Ruby as I understand it. To choose between them, you'd probably choose Ruby if you're interesting in web development for the Ruby on Rails framework community, and otherwise go with Python.
JavaScript is even more different from C++ in that it does away with classes entirely. Objects are simply cloned from other objects and can have methods and properties added to them at runtime. Very flexible, but also very easy to make into a total mess. JavaScript is the only real choice if you're interested in running applications in a browser, which is really coming into its own as a platform. You'll find the standard libraries available rather limited if you're not doing a lot with the browser, but there are quite a few good frameworks which fill in some of the gaps.
Some other interesting, though more niche choices are
Smalltalk - More or less in the Ruby and Python camp, and significantly faster as I understand it. Be careful though _ I've seen lots of good engineers learn Smalltalk and never come back ;)
Objective-C - When C went object oriented, C++ went one way (static typing), and Objective-C went the other (dynamic typing). It's quite Smalltalk inspired, and has a good standard library if you're in Mac / iPhone land. In terms of memory management, unlike everything else I've listed, it's not garbage collected (though that's now an option on Mac OS X 10.5), but it does have a reference counting scheme which makes life significantly simpler than managing memory by hand.
Lisp - I've never learnt it myself beyond what I needed for minor Emacs hacking. As I understand it, the libraries were nice in their day, but though the language remains supremely elegant, they've fallen a little behind the times.
Haskel - If you wanted a complete break from objects and classes, Haskel and it's functional approach is an interesting way to go (or Lisp as above, or F# if you are in .Net land). Basically, you're giving up loops and variables in favour of doing everything recursively. Takes some time to wrap your mind around, and probably isn't practical for most real world applications, but it's a good one to learn.
Eiffel - I love it - Very clean syntax, and designed for serious engineering type systems. Statically types like C# and Java, and with a weaker standard library, but it will make you really think about language and class library design.
ActionScript and Flex - The programming interface to Flash, which is based on what seems to be a statically typed version of JavaScript. I've played with it a bit, and it's quite slick if you're interested in developing media based applications. You can also push beyond the browser with Flex and into the Air platform to build real desktop apps.
I would say that from your question you probably haven't finished learning about C++. If you're still doing your own memory managment then you still have a long way to go my friend!
Check out the auto_ptr and shared_ptr - check out the Boost libraries.
Similarly with abstraction - what are you specifically complaining about? AFAIK there's not much you can't do with C++ that is present in other strongly-typed languages.
I know this doesn't answer your question - you want to move forwards, but C++ is one of those things where you never really stop learning. If you get bored, take a brief foray into templates and template meta-programming...
I see a lot of excellent suggestions so far. However, I think there's something missing, assembler.
Why learn assembly language?
It's not as difficult as you may think. Assembly language is a lot smaller in scope than many modern languages, there are a few tricks you need to understand for it to make sense, but it's not that complicated.
It broadens your knowledge base. Knowing the fundamentals is almost always beneficial, even when working at a high level.
It can be extremely useful when debugging. Especially debugging native code without the source, the knowledge you gain from learning assembler enhances your ability to debug in these situations by leaps and bounds.
It gives you more options. When the rare circumstance comes up where assembly code is needed you won't be helpless.
It's good for your resume. It shows that you learn beyond just the bare minimum needed to keep your current job, it shows a curiosity about fundamentals, and it puts you in a different class of programmers, and that class tends to be more experienced and more capable.
It's just plain cool.
Some assembly language resources:
Sandpile.org (assembly language / processor architecture reference)
Gavin's Guide to 80x86 Assembly (a decent online tutorial)
Assembly Language for Intel-Based Computers (5e) (a decent textbook for x86 assembly)
Trying something really foreign like Haskell will allow you to think in different ways. It also helps you to think recursively. C++ has recursion but it infiltrates many more parts of functional languages.
ditto Lisp,.. or scheme
Even if you don't ever use it, it's handy. I only really got template programming after learning it.
Another one is prolog. it puts you in a non sequential mindset.
If you're comfortable with C++ syntax and style, you might find D to be an interesting language. Or if you want to branch out, any of Python, C#, Java, Ruby would be excellent choices.
C# if you're in the Microsoft ecosystem.
Python and Ruby seem to have the most traction in the Linux/Unix/etc space.
ObjectiveC is dominant on the Macintosh and iPhone. The most recent MacOS implements garbage collection for a subset of the frameworks, but to use the rest you'd have to do resource management yourself.
You could learn Java, as it does garbage collection as well, but the number of frameworks you'd need to become familiar with to be a productive Java developer is daunting.
Well if you're looking for a very high level of abstraction and memory management then I'd say lisp would be an ideal candidate. I'm learning it now, slowly, and it's the most fun I've had with a new language.
Having said that Python or Ruby may be a better compromise between expressiveness and popularity. Python's Django framework is one of the better RAD frameworks if you're looking for web application stuff.
I'd say it depends on the kind of programming you want to try. If you want to stay on the OOP side, learn Python or Ruby, both languages provide an easy way to create bindings to use your C++ code from a script (for efficiency reasons).
If you need another approach to programming, learn a "functional" language like Lisp or Haskell.
And if you need to include a fast and small scripting language inside your C++ application, try Lua.
Last but not least, if you know Java and hate it, you can try Scala, a language where you can mix your Java classes with your Scala code, very interesting.
Scheme.
The Little Schemer and Structure and Interpretation of Computer Program will stretch your mind in strange and wonderful ways.
DrScheme is a good IDE for beginners. The Scheme Programming Language makes a good, free reference.
try c# much :)
if you want to abstract memory management, Java comes to my mind instantly.
I suggest learning database design and a query language such as SQL.
You can start with a desktop tool like Microsoft Access or use the free SQL Server Express or Postgre or MySQL.
Well I think there is no predefined route in learning programming languages. You may learn your next lang based on your job needs, academic research, just for fun, etc. There are many options.
In you feel comfortable in C++, you can go down and learn some assembly. It's a dark art but you'll be glad when you encounter some hard debugging session.
In terms of more abstraction, Smalltalk is extremely fun, OOP-pure and 100% dynamic (debugging is a pleasant thing to do, which is not in static-typed languages). Dolphin Smalltalk is a good implementation for Windows, even the free community edition gives enough to play with. In multiplatform Smalltalk VMs, go for Visualworks or Squeak. Visualworks is extremely stable and comes with a lot of documentation.
Python is used today in many, many fields. I don't know anything about Python excepting the basic syntax and semantics, but it's required today for many jobs.
Java it's, well Java. It's interesting that Java never catch on me. You may get interested on Java, altough. Ask here for advantages of using it over C++ or other OOP languages.
For Web development go for Javascript, specially considering the AJAX wave. It's getting interesting those days. We've talked about Smalltalk, all right, Seaside is an amazing framework for web development. It works (at least I tried on) Squeak /Visualworks... it's beatiful.
Well, there are a lot of more to get your hands on: Scheme, LISP, Ruby, Lua, Bash (!), Perl (ugh), Haskell... Try them all and have fun!
Qt
Why not learn Qt? Its a great application development framework available on all platforms and even mobile devices!
Clojure is well worth exploring as it meets both of your criteria:
It has a strong emphasis on programming with higher level abstractions. see e.g. this video: Clojure: The Art of Abstraction
It has automatic memory management / garbage collection (via the JVM, which has some of the world's best GC implementations)
I'll give some examples using just one abstraction: in Clojure you can manipulate pretty much any data structure via the sequence abstraction.
;; treat a vector as a sequence and reverse it
(reverse [1 2 3 4 5])
=> (5 4 3 2 1)
;; Take 10 items from a infinite sequence
(take 10 (range))
=> (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
;; Treat a String as a sequence of characters, calculate the frequencies
(frequencies "abracadabra")
=> {\a 5, \b 2, \r 2, \c 1, \d 1}
;; Define an infinite lazy sequence of fibonacci numbers, take the first 10
(def fibs (concat [0 1] (lazy-seq (map + fibs (rest fibs)))))
(take 10 fibs)
=> (0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34)
Since you are already into C++, next step would be to learn .Net through managed C++ or managed extensions for C++..this will get you a step in the big world of .Net framework..Once you understand the framework, makes it more comfortable to learn other .Net languages like C#, VB.Net etc.
One of the areas that MC++ excels in, and is in fact unique in amongst the .NET languages, is the ability to take an existing unmanaged (C++) application, recompile it with the /clr switch, have it generate MSIL and then run under the CLR. This extraordinary feat is aptly termed "It Just Works (IJW)!" There are some limitations, but for the most part, the application will just run. The C++ code can consist of old-fashioned printf statements, MFC, ATL, or even templates!
I recommend python as it's not only a sexy language, but also very widely used and easy to integrate with C++ through Boost.Python.
But as Thomi said, there's lot to explore in C++ and with the help of Boost libraries it's becoming really easy to develop in.
Rather than suggest a specific language, I would recommend you pick any language or languages that offer the following 4 features:
Automatic Memory Management
Reflection/Introspection
Declarative/Functional constructs(e.g. lambda functions)
Duck Typing
The idea here is to expand your programming perspective to include concepts that the C++ language does not offer you out of the box.
It depends on what you want to do. If you have some specific tasks that you are interested in accomplishing then look at languages that are best for those types of tasks. The best way to learn a language is to actually use it.
I'd say get started with Python. It has a higher level of abstraction and it teaches you the importance of indenting and making "pretty" code. Not that "pretty" is very important, but it will make the future maintainer of your code a lot happier :)
There's a lot of example code out there, and if you are into Linux there are various distributions out there who have all (or most) of their tools based on the language. If you like digging into how managing an operating systems works (something most programmers do) it's a good start. Before I get the flames I said managing, not the actual kernel stuff for that you mostly need C and you should have that covered.
On the other hand it might be nice to dive into the C side of things, ignore the OO stuff and learn functional programming. If you head down that road I also suggest to start with basic assembly language like one of the upper posts suggested. Maybe HLA (High-Level Assembly by Randall Hyde, he wrote a great book called Art of Assembly Language Programming) is a good start. You'll either learn to love memory management or hate it for the rest of your live. Good to know in case you want to start a career in programming :)
However if you're looking to make a job out of programming, Java and J2EE is an easy money maker if you know what you're doing. IMHO it gets boring really quick though.
Personally, I have been programming in Java, Python, C/++ and my favorite has to be python. Although C++ can do everything Python can do and more, I wrote a Python program with about 10 lines that would take about 50 in C++. So, moral of the story, use python.
If you haven't already, try out a scripting language. It should change the way you work & think. Hopefully, in a good way :)
I've got to put up a separate answer for Perl. While Python is roughly equivalent in functionality and considered more clean and modern, Perl has an elegance all of its own - the elegance of pure pragmatism. It also boasts a truly great library support. Take a look at Perl to expand your brain in the direction opposite to Haskel :) (although Perl aficionados claim that it can be used for functional programming).
Rust
Syntactically similar to C++
Designed for performance and safety, especially safe concurrency