I believe we're moving to Oracle Apex for future development. I've read about Oracle Apex on wikipedia and it's pro and con. It seem to me the con outweigh the pro but maybe I'm wrong. I get the sense that Oracle Apex is for DBA with little or no programing knowledge to setup a web app quickly sort like MS Access for none programmer.
If you have Oracle Apex working experience, can you share your thought? From Wikipedia's entry, it doesn't seem like you need to know any programming language at all but just the PL/SQL?
edit: Is Oracle Apex scalable? Can it handle traffic like Facebook's size?
edit: after working nearly two years on Oracle Apex 3.2. I can safely said that I hate it and I don't see why anyone would want to create web app/page on browser, pl/sql and no way to do version control.
Thank.
Jack
Please note my experiences are with APEX 2.x-3.0.
I used Apex for a few internal apps over a 12 month period but eventually dumped it for ASP.NET.
Some Oracle evangelists claim it is capable of creating highly dynamic content on par with the more mainstream frameworks like ASP.NET/J2EE. Technically this is true, but then technically its also true that you could cross the atlantic in a one man canoe. If you are tempted to throw yourself into a APEX project of even moderate complexity then I suggest you look at the APEX sample of a simple discussion forum. Compare it to an ASP.NET MVC discussion forum sample or a RoR implementation.
Having said that:
The Good
Incredibly easy to generate a respectable web app with basic CRUD data entry, simple reporting and populate it with data. If you're the IT guy who's been tasked with consolidating a company's mess of Excel/Access dbs into a central DB/web environment then you should take a look at APEX, it very well suited for this task. If you expect the scope to grow to something of even moderate complexity then I would move straight to a more flexible framework.
If you are a DBA/PLSQL guru but have no experience with traditional web development you'll be well prepped to expose existing business logic in a web app without stuffing around with HTML/CSS/JavaScript if you dont want to.
APEX support forum has a ton of info and is well staffed by APEX devs.
The Bad
My experience with Apex began to go downhill when apps moved beyond CRUD data entry and required more dynamic and event driven behaviours.
The web based GUI is not cool. Debugging is painful.
Version Control? Who needs version control?
When you (inevitably) need to do anything outside the limited scope of the framework, you'll have to get your hands dirty with PL/SQL. Writing business logic against the database is fine, but generating HTML from PL/SQL procedures felt uncomfortably archaic in 2007.
Given the large number of sneaky places you can hide page and redirection logic, the program flow is both difficult to visualise and not naturally conducive to modular, separable and reusable code. OOP developers will be not be impressed. It's possible to have well structured maintainable applications with APEX but its harder than it should be. This is worlds away from MVC.
Unacceptable number of framework bugs in the versions I used. I'd hope this has improved with recent versions, but the paradigm of integrating the IDE into the APEX platform itself caused me some of the darkest, soul destroying debugging sessions of my life. As an example, I was trying to reproduce an intermittent bug that would cause a user to lose their session data. Using the session information popup I saw that occasionally the session data would change when it shouldnt have. I spent 2 days trying to find the error in my code with no luck. Near delirious, I noticed by pure chance that I could reproduce errorous session data in the debug window but the application itself wouldnt go into an error state. My heart sunk when I realised what might be happening. Oracle later confirmed that I'd found a bug in APEX that caused the session information window to intermittently show me data from a prior session. I'd wasted 2 days debugging a session related bug with a buggy session debug window. That was the last Apex app I built.
PL/SQL is not and will never be the Next Big Thing in web development. After working with APEX for a while I realised it wasnt going to make me a better web developer. Mastering APEX is really about PL/SQL. Thats fine if you plan to focus your career on Oracle technology, just be aware that APEX is so tangential to the direction of mainstream web technologies that the portable set of skills you can take from APEX to other web frameworks is minimal.
If you are considering APEX to provide simple web based data entry and reporting, its worth a look. If you are looking for an alternative to .NET/JAVA/PHP for dynamic web content and rich UI interaction I'd advise you to look elsewhere.
I read this page with great interest. Our development team has using Apex for about 2 years now, and I'd like to sum up our experience.
For building basic CRUD applications, Apex really is excellent. In fact I recommend you try it yourself. We did face some initial minor difficulties setting it up, but these seem to have been ironed out in the 3.2 release.
The good
Great for simple applications. If you app will grow in complexity, consider an alternative solution.
The built in templates mean your app looks quite professional (although some will debate this).
A good support forum and community, with plenty of eager people on hand to assist you.
Some superb built in controls. Love the graphs and reports (but see below).
The bad
The debugger is abysmal. If you have used Visual Studio (and even ancient versions of Microsoft Access), you will cringe at the debugger. No breakpoints, debug messages spewing out to screen in a big list, having to manually print debug messages to the screen. Horrible. The cause of many, many hours lost to support.
As soon as your application becomes complex or requires any rich functionality, you have to resort to Javascript and HTML / CSS hacks, which make debugging and support even more complicated (although you can use tools like Firebug or Visual Studio to assist with this).
We've encountered unexplained session state bugs, and stylesheets becoming 'detached' from the application without explanation - to name a couple of issues.
Supporting unfamiliar apps can be challenging, as it can be difficult to follow the page logic flow without a good debugger. And I don't buy the stock response of 'well - apps should be coded better'. Because in the real world, they aren't - especially when you're using a contractor.
Reports look good but not much good if you can't print them or export to PDF. Of course you can shell out for a reporting server, in the end we used another solution.
Overall
I would say by all means use Apex for simple CRUD apps. For anything of more than mild complexity go for .Net or Java. I wouldn't take any notice of the Wiki article on Apex as it's very skewed. Note how 'difficult to debug' (in my opinion the biggest failing) has been erased from the article.
Something to be very wary of as well is the ludicrous claim that you can quickly convert Access databases straight to Apex. Yes it will work if you Access DB is very, very simplistic. Anything moderately complex, forget it, as we found.
We would definitely not use it for web facing apps, only internal. There are simply too many difficulties doing things you would take for granted in say, .Net. I know there are sites out there such as AskTom, but these are not exactly complex. Will we see the next Facebook on it? I think not - although I am sure someone reading this will have a crack at it.
Apex is summed up in a previous comment - managers see the demos, and quickly buy in, convinced that they've found a silver bullet that will slash development times. I've had managers calling me and saying, we need a db app with 40 tables building in a week in Apex please - that's how far the myth has perpetrated. The reality is somewhat different. Yes some things are quicker, substantially quicker, but you will lose the time in other areas - debugging, support, and customisation.
Of course you are best deciding for yourself. Install it, give it a go, you may like it. But don't be fooled by the fast development time claims until you've given it a good going over on a realistic application.
I am involved in a huge project to migrate a 5000 module Oracle Forms application to APEX. This is an extreme use of APEX, but it's working just fine. It is a complete myth that APEX is suitable only for small internal apps built by DBAs, interns or end users: it is certainly suitable for those too (and more suitable than most other tools), but it can also be used to build extremely sophisticated applications.
To build a sophisticated application (rather than a default out-of-the box APEX one) you will need someone on the team with Javascript skills, and someone with CSS skills. But most developers will just need PL/SQL initially.
Is it scalable? Yes: probably more scalable than most other solutions! APEX adds very little overhead to the database server, and only the most minimal of application servers is required. "Facebook size"? I don't know for sure but I don't see why not, assuming you have an Oracle database on a machine large and powerful enough to handle "Facebook size" data and transaction volumes. Like any Oracle project, scalability is impeded mostly by bad database designs and poorly written SQL, not by the tool. Not many people ever find themselves building "Facebook size" systems though: are you?
APEX is a framework that uses the database and PL/SQL to produce web pages. If you can figure out what the output to the browser will need to be you can create it in APEX. If you find any part of the framework inhibiting you can write PL/SQL procedures and expose them to the web server directly but still take advantage of the security, logging, session state, etc that the APEX system manages for you.
You should know PL/SQL, SQL, HTML, JavaScript and CSS. Sure the interface looks like a big data entry application but the data you enter will mostly be code snippets in each of these languages.
It scales as well as the database does. It typically uses Apache as a web server but is only used to serve static files and pass requests back to the database, where the web pages are created by the PL/SQL code in the APEX schema. You can use AJAX to minimize the size of the traffic traveling up and down the pipe. You can set caching for specific items, lists, page regions, pages, etc.
Since most things are pretty simple to do with the framework, naturally there will be some things that are a little more complicated to do within the framework. The color coding example given above might be something you do with CSS or maybe you would need to turn to print statements to produce the output you need. The thing is to learn the how the framework makes life easier and then when you hit a limit you can easily resort to more direct methods.
Coming from VB.Net you will miss the step by step debugging and the drag and drop. You will never miss the fact that some part of the page lifecycle will do a bind and reset the values you bound to an object in another part of the page.
Good luck.
Greg
I am a DBA and I never had to program with APEX or recently anything else (aside some bash scripting and custom SQL scripts for administration purposes) because my job is far away from developing applications (except being pain in the ass of developers that is). Of course my background is developer though and I do believe APEX is future for strictly Oracle based data centric programs.
Now the keyword here is data centric since I disagree with many other DBAs that all applications are data centric (you know the kind of DBAs who still think ODBC stands for ORACLE Database Connectivity). Of course all applications involve data but are all applications data centric? I doubt, just as I doubt APEX would be ever used for image processing or mobile gaming kind of apps. However, despite all the hype with RIA and Web 2.0 the fact is most of businesses around us are hungry for those plain old data centric applications and Oracle is best database around and I can assure you Oracle and APEX can handle much much more than Facebook scalability provided of course you have put the same amount of money as Facebook guys in underlying infrastructure.
By the way I also hate Oracle's design of APEX themes (awful unprofessional UI, just imagine it as main UI for a bank or airline business), limited capabilities (although that seems about to change in the future), many many more issues (professional PDF reporting without paying amount of Enterprise Database license for BI publisher??) but most of all marketing of APEX as substitute of Access or Excel because it gives bad impression it is for kids and I can assure you my friend I would never allow kids to touch my databases :)
You see, Oracle has a gem called PL/SQL which was perfected over the years to handle data in much more intutitive way than any other language. Now that gem is withering with slow death of Forms/Reports and I am positive no fresh graduate will ever bother learning it strictly for database stored procedures (just see the raging war between Java and .Net developers and you realize that once you touch curly brackets {} anything else becomes a heresy). Alas for thousands upon thousands of excellent PL/SQL developers APEX remains the only sanctuary where they can remain productive and develop outstanding data centric applications and without APEX PL/SQL will surely become next COBOL. This is why PL/SQL community will drive Oracle to transform APEX to grade A platform much more powerful than what we are seeing today. Either that or say bye bye to PL/SQL and join curly brackets front (by the way it is never a bad idea to at least try different technologies when you are developer, at least you get an idea why it is not neccessarily greener at the other side).
I'm not sure why you don't consider PL/SQL a programming language...
APEX is ideal for internal applications where you want a lightweight UI on top of your data. You can build that rather easily without having to write any code.
I also find APEX to be very good for developing smaller customer-facing applications. I wouldn't want to build a giant application that is going to have hundreds of developers working on it using APEX. But if you have a case where 3 or 4 developers are building a smallish site, APEX is likely to be just as good as Java/PHP/ASP.Net/whatever assuming equally skilled developers. If your developers all have lots of ASP.Net expertise, for example, they're going to have a learning curve to write APEX apps. You'd have at least the same level of difficulty, though, if you had a bunch of PL/SQL developers try to learn how to build ASP.Net sites.
That Apex is only suitable for non-programmers and DBAs is an unfortunate misconception. We have used it to build several line-of-business, mission-critical, customer-facing web applications.
The GUI is handled by Apex page templates (HTML), CSS and a bit of Javascript to enhance the user experience. All business logic is placed in PL/SQL packages. This is key to making your application easy to maintain, and to reuse the business logic in other Apex applications and from other client tools, such as C# WinForms, Delphi, Java apps, etc.
As for performance, the Apex engine adds little overhead and the response times and scalability of your application depends largely on the quality of your SQL queries (and the data model). Think about it this way: With Apex, the only thing between your user and the database is a thin layer of PL/SQL. It's only common sense that this has to be faster than a typical .NET or Java application that has seventeen layers of complexity (typically including lots of web services and object-relational mapping layers) between the GUI and the database.
Don't put buisiness logic into Apex. Use it for presentation only.
If you put the code in the app your will not be able to maintain it, and you'll get RSI from all that clicking. I always create a wrapper layer, and in the oracle world follow Tom Kytes advise - put the business logic as close to the data as possible. This also means that you PL/SQL modules can be called by other systems etc - and best of all - the real meat of your applicaiton will be in straight text files that can be manipulated with your favourite text editor / IDE.
Create a view with all of the data to be retrieved for each screen.
Create a single wrapper package for all CRUD operations. (Thats is Create, Read, Update and Delete I presume)
In short:
DO NOT PUT YOUR APP LOGIC IN APEX.
Thats my advise . . . .
Oracle's Metalink support site was written in Apex, so it definitely CAN scale. They're migrating to a newer Flash-based support site now though. I understand they acquired that platform through an aquisition of another company, rather than building it in response to any Apex limits.
If you want 'super sexy' with any web-app, you'd probably need to go Flash/Silverlight/Air. Under that, any HTML based site, including an Apex one, can be prettied up with Javascript. The JQuery library will be included in with the next main version of Apex (4.0), though you can include that (or any other library) now.
The caching issue mentioned in the Wikipedia article has been addressed, though most installations would still put images and scripts on a conventional directory structure rather than serving them out of the database.
While you are locked into the Oracle database, I don't get the 'platform' lock "con" in the article. Oracle is available on Windows, Linux and AIX (amongst others). That's a lot less lock than ASP / SQL Server.
On my project, we use Oracle APEX for internal views of our system. It works very well for that purpose.
There's no programming required. PL/SQL and even SQL are optional. As a result, our DBA and operator can mold the view to their liking.
On the downside, if there's a feature you need which is not programmed into the system, it's very hard to add it. For instance, we wanted to color-code our output and have not been able to do that.
I would not want to have a customer-facing site built on APEX.
On the question of scalability, one nice thing about APEX is that it's built on Oracle. Focus on writing good SQL and designing the tables properly, and things should scale just fine. I'd be more concerned about getting enough users for scalability to be the problem.
Enjoyed very much reading the thread from top to bottom, as it felt like a hot debate. To remind the start of the thread it started as "I believe we're moving to Oracle Apex for future development..." jack being a .NET programmer was worried about the decision of his management and thought of finding counter facts for Oracle Apex which ultimately ended up washing the dirty linen (of all web frameworks) in public.
Despite the fact that the victim was Oracle Apex, the same could happen to either .net or j2ee if the debate was between .net and j2ee gurus. My point is all frameworks has their own pros and cons. That is why actually we have so many. Its a waste of time debating over what is more important to live (sex, food or water?) Naturally we select the most appropriate item when that is needed.
Oracle APEX suites for environments where you have lots of Oracle Databases and when you really have Pl/SQL enthusiasts. Can really build rich, complex, web 2.0 Data Centric applications really easily (Apex 4.0) but debugging and version control is still a mess and you also will have to stick to an Oracle database(yes you can have workarounds but not robust).
If you'd like to see an external web site done in APEX, I suggest looking at the Oracle Tools Users Group site, or Ask Tom. Both are large, frequently used sites with much customization.
Your impression from the Wikipedia article is correct. The only programming knowledge you need is PL/SQL. If most of your site will be simple reports, you don't even need to write the SQL queries, and the wizard interface will build the query and the output for you. If you want cool client side work, you will need to know CSS and Javascript. The PL/SQL is only for the more complex data validation.
I disagree. It is not only suitable to devs with a few developing skills or DBAs.
We actually produce highly customized apps using CSS templates of our own, a lot of dynamic actions and interaction (using jQuery and several frameworks), fine-tuned security, our own apex plugins and complex PL/SQL processes.
Of course, I am using apex > 4.0.
So, you can build complex apps (we have up to 100 different processes/validations and dynamic actions per pages) if needed. And it could require strong programming skills to code properly in javascript and PL/SQL(OOP) or Java stored procedures + a good knowledge of SQL to define opimized queries of up to 500 lines of code using recursive SQL and some funny features.
Related
This is an open source contributor project for Wikidata's Chronic Pain project.
I would like to create a webpage that :
Have inputboxes where the user select several wikipedia page titles (with suggestions)
Can also take these parameters via the URL
Get items metadata from Wikidata.
Makes a SPARQL request to gather scholarly articles.
Render data from Wikidata and Wikipedia, linking to various wiki pages.
The webpage will be hosted on Wikimedia fundation server. I have access to a linux container as well as a Jupyter Notebook (not sure this one is suitable for this project). It has to be coded in Python 3 since I will use Pywikibot framework to interact with Wikidata.
I'm new to programming so that I don't really know what is the best approach. I heard that it was difficult to code webpages in Python without using a framework like Django. However this page is very simple so that it may not be the most efficient to deploy Django for this ?
NB : your question is bordering on "primarily opinion based" (which doesn't mean it's a bad question by itself but that answers might be more, well, opinions than hard facts).
This being said, "a single interactive page" doesn't mean the server code behind is just loading a static html file and sending it to the client. For example, the main UI part of our product is, technically speaking, "a single interactive page", but this "single" page is full react app and is backed by a dedicated API with a dozen entry points, which the dispatch to a whole load of backend code including database access, celery tasks etc. It would of course be technically possible to code all this with only pure wsgi or even plain old cgi code, but well, it could also be possible to write it directly in C or even assembly and no one would ever consider this a viable solution.
To make a long story short: do not even waste your time trying to code this project with plain wsgi (and let's not talk cgi), you will end up reinventing the squared wheel and everyone will hate you for this (stakeholders because you'll never deliver a robust, working product in due time and budget, and other devs because they'll now have to port the whole darn thing to a stable, mature and maintained framework). Now if Django appears to be overkill for this project there are much lighter frameworks like flask. Actually both are the "industry standard" and safe choices.
Hey there,
So I've been heavily focused on design/development using web technology for the last few years (php/mysql, javascript, etc), and I'm a bit hesitant to start learning C++.. At the same time, I see it as a potentially enjoyable learning experience.
To keep things brief, right now I'm developing an online app that plots out certain locations on a map, and you can sort through these locations and do a bunch of other nifty things..sorry to be vague. The point is: I don't see any real advantages of making this an actual "app" when the entire functionality of the app itself can do quite fine through the modern mobile browser..
Not to mention that, by living in a browser, it's much less proprietary
So, my question is: Is there any way to make a simple app that's basically porting the user to my site? I guess it'd be convenient that as an app, the user has a nice little icon to click on when they do need to access it..
Android development relies heavily on Java. So you are all ready on the right track.
However if you just want to make an app that brings people to your website, running javascript I am guessing, this is easy to do with android.
Android supports the webkit browser and has a view group called WebView. Your app can be nothing more than a shortcut on a desktop that opens a webview directly pointed to your website. It could add other options to point to other parts of your website like bookmarks.
WebView webview = new WebView(this);
setContentView(webview);
weview.getSettings().setJavaScriptEnabled(true);
webview.loadUrl("yoursiteurlgoeshere);
A lot of apps on the market are actually based around a WebView. There are other classes that allow you more control over the view, like whether links are opened in the webview or in a new browser, or whether the user is allowed to use the resize options, etc.
Welcome to Android.
There is a massive article on exactly this type of idea. It discusses a number of different things and is well worth the read if you are indeed interested in making a cross-phone web-app. It talks about an html5 facility in the works for creating such a thing as you describe, but it isn't quite universal yet.
Here is an article on making an iphone app in html5.
You can also use phonegap to port your design to andorid.
also, check out a jquery plugin calld jqtouch if you are interseted in developing touch capable applications quickly.
If you are worried about speed and the issue of internet connectivity, you can use html5 local storage features which are available on both android and itouch. Ibm has a great series on these issues and part 2 covers local storage.
No. The problem with web technology on a mobile device is the delay. You are far away from the server, so a lot of the things you can easily do with a normal client creates a very bad user experience on a mobile device. The roundtrip time is simply too large. You have to move much more functionality to the client. This client is also less powerfull, and tends to have limits on caching large elements
How is this related to C++?
There is also a C++ API which is only recently available. Google calls it the NDK (Native Development Kit). Information about it can be found here: http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html
I personally haven't developed using the NDK. The only real reason someone would really need to would be to write a high-performance application that can't stand the overhead of the Java JVM--which is getting more and more rare these days IMO.
As far as creating a simple app with a web container in it, see Phobos' response. That is exactly how I'd do it personally.
Update: Albert D. Kallal has kindly started the discussion off, and to get some more opinions I'm adding a bounty.
This is a nontrivial question about maintenance of a legacy application myself and two other developers support. We are not the original developers, and the code base is 300,000 lines of MFC and business logic tightly coupled together. We don't know every single line of code 100%.
We do know the code behind the major components, and we know that it's poorly written. Our objective is to refactor the application out of 1995 and into 2010. Between the three of us there is (in aggregate) enough experience in software architecture and database design for us to fix the components that are poorly architected in code or incorrectly modelled in the database, but we don't have a lot of experience with modern reporting systems. Thus my question (once you get to the end of it...) is about reporting systems.
For anybody who reads this entire post, I am appreciative of your time. For anybody who reads this post and replies with solutions, experience (or sympathy!), I am both appreciative and thankful.
At work I have inherited the maintenance of an Access 2003 database that contains approximately 250 reports (and thousands of supporting queries) that acts as a reporting engine for our application.
The reports all have swathes of VBA in them for particular formatting or pulling extra information into the report. For this reason we are entirely locked into the Access platform, we can't use tools like BIDS to import the Access report objects without messing around to make the report display the same without VBA.
So to get ourselves out of this Access solution we need to put some time in going over every single report. Which means we're looking to pick the best longterm solution, since we're going to have to redevelop every report regardless of the platform we choose.
Furthermore our customers have a choice of Microsoft Access or SQL Server as their database. This means that all our SQL has to be written with the lowest common denominator in mind - JET SQL. We've got some wiggle room to drop support for Microsoft Access, but we'd need to build a case for it. If the best reporting system we can identify has strong support for SQL Server but little or no support for Microsoft Access this will accelerate us dropping support for Microsoft Access as a database.
The overall implementation of the report system is quite mediocre, when we want to display reports in our application we start a Microsoft Access process, find its window and reparent it to our application, strip off its window styles and then use the Access.Application COM interface to invoke some VBA that creates linked tables to the database (either a Microsoft Access MDB or a SQL Server database) and then opens up the report we want. Probably the only supported part of the process is using the public COM interfaces, the rest is an ugly hack. The other components in the application are equally underwhelming.
To "fix" our application we've got a new development plan, with development of our application split into (approximately) three parts every year.
4 months upgrading our application to support the latest government legislation in our industry
4 months delivering a new major feature
4 months "consolidation" (fixing what is broken)
We're currently at #3 now (for this year), and we really want to take advantage of the downtime to fix up the application, refactoring the major components. We have three developers, and want AppName v5.0 out at the end of 2012 (it's currently AppName v4.12). This gives us 36 months of development effort to approportion between several components (user interface, underlying database structure, reporting, etc) over the three consolidation periods we will have before then. The sum of the components that we fix will give us v5.0.
We've scoped out what we'd like to do with most of the components except for our reporting engine, and I'm posting on SO in the hope of getting some good ideas, or at least a feel for the work that's required.
I have two ideas for improving our reporting system. Both of them involve a moderate amount of work, and there is one consideration that neither solution addresses completely: in addition to the reports that we develop, our customers also have the opportunity to request bespoke development of reports. They're customer-specific, we take their Access database, augment it with their report and give it back to the customer. There's hundreds of unique reports out there - unusable if we turned the old system off. (And we have to turn the old system off eventually - we don't know how much longer we're going to be able to mess around with the Microsoft Access window to make it look like an embedded report. We already have two distinct code paths for Access 2003 and 2007. What if we can't hack up a code path for Access 2010 and all our customers have to use Access 2007?)
For both ideas, the intention is to stop supporting our current reporting system and let it run for as long as it will without maintenance. Maybe we can hack in Access 2010 and Access 2014 support, and the customer reports that were developed keep putting along for 5 more years. Over time, we'd migrate the most commonly used reports from the old Access database into their new format.
Idea 1: Microsoft.Reporting.WinForms.ReportViewer
The first idea is to write a wrapper around the ReportViewer control as a replacement reporting engine.
We'd need to move the project to C++/CLI (already on the cards), and instead of having to launch an entire process each time we needed to view a report we could simply instantiate this control. A bonus of this that the RDLC files that contain the reports are much easier to version control in Subversion than the Access 2003 database we currently have (we use Visual SourceSafe because the tools to integrate SVN with Access don't work well with the size of our Access database). The visual designer for RDLC files is also nicely integrated into Visual Studio.
This is more of an evolutionary rather than revolutionary change to the way we do reports, the ReportViewer control will take an RDLC file that has the report layout, and our application will take care of querying the data. Because our database might be SQL Server or Microsoft Access, we still have to write simple JET SQL. We're gaining better reporting (drill down looks nice), stronger authoring tools and easier version control, but is this worth the effort?
Idea 2: SQL Server Reporting Services and SharePoint 2010 with Access Services
The second idea is to kill Access as a database platform and migrate all our customers to SQL Server (we have hosted instances of our application for those customers who don't have the skill set to set up their own SQL Server instances). Once they're migrated we would use SQL Server Reporting Services as the reporting engine, with the ReportViewer control in server rendering mode.
In addition to SQL Server Reporting Services, I am curious as to whether SharePoint 2010 with Access Services could be used to rapidly migrate existing Access reports into a more manageable format. We'd take the Access report that the customer uses, convert it to an Access Web Report then make it available for them on a SharePoint site. This would only be for our hosted customers, but if we find a way to deal quickly massage the VBA out of customer reports we could churn through the several hundred custom reports our customers have.
I'm also interested in the ability to use an Access Web Navigation Form to act as a portal to all our reports. We'd host a web browser control inside our application which would give customers access to their own reports and to our standard suite.
We'd get all the benefits of Idea #1 plus the ability to write in full Transact SQL, a reports portal, and (hopefully) a reasonable upgrade path for customer's proprietary reports.
So, my question is: am I going about this the right way? Are these viable solutions for modern reporting systems, or laughable? We have a strong preference for using the ReportViewer control either in client rendering mode where our application processes the data, or in server rendering mode in conjunction with SQL Server - but are there reporting systems like Crystal Reports which offer better reporting and better migration paths for our legacy Access reports?
If you had up to 36 months of developer time, how would you do this?
Well, ok, no one else jumping in, I give this a go.
Quite interesting how you talking about a report writer that 15+ years old. Back then the Access report writer was beyond state of the art. It was a country mile ahead of everything else in the industry. Even today a lot of competing report writers don't have the concept of sub reports that allows modeling of relational data without having to resort to code or even SQL. Then, throw in programmable VBA, then the result is something that's very unique and powerful.
For access 2007, the report writer received some more nice upgrades in terms of layout controls but that going to be of little help here.
And, for 2010 we can now display reports in a sub-form control. This feature was added to facilitate use of the new access navigation control. Access 2010 has a new web browser control (works in forms or reports), and there also a new navigation control. Your post hints that the new navigation control and the web control are somehow related to each other but they completely different features.
Both the new web browser control, and navigation control can be used in both web appliations or 100% client only applications. The navigation control is nice since you can build that nav contorl by drag and dropping reports onto the nav control to build up a up a list of reports to choose from (it is slick and easy and nice). And with this navigation control, we can actually build some nice drill down type of interfaces for reports.
As you noted for access 2010 we now have web publishing of access reports and this feature is based on SQL server reporting services (they are RDL reports). However, two important issues here is no VBA is allowed inside of the web reports. And, I also point out that there is no automatic conversion utility that is built into access that will convert existing reports into web based reports. So to build a report that's going to be designated and published to the web, you have to choose specifically to create a web report to accomplish this goal. So this answers and clears up one question of yours of will this help you convert existing reports to SQL server, and the answer is no. So, Access will not help you convert existing reports to web based RDL reports (As noted, Access uses RDL and sql reporting for those web reports - those reports also render in the access client side without conversion).
Access has a great path for web based reports via SharePoint and also Access Web is coming to Office 365. However, keep in mind this ability is not going to help much with the existing reports that you have.
In fact one of the things I would be looking at if you're going to use winforms report viewer is the change in where that existing VBA report code will be moved to? You not really mentioned this issue. As noted one really interesting and great feature of those reports is that imbedded VBA code. Often that VBA will have been used because SQL and something like RDL will NOT work because neither of those languages (sql, and RDL) are procedural code.
I can't stress how important this concept is. So, this quite much means any report writer replacements means that code will now have to be OUTSIDE of the reports and moved into your application. So, keep this issue in mind as now when you issue new reports, you also be issuing new procedural code that NOT be contained in those reports. This code will have to become part of your application (so, to issue new reports, you will thus also be issusing a new version of your software).
You are not likely to find much that allows procedural code to be imbedded inside the report like you can with access. So, that report code and logic will now have to be built and maintained within your main application and outside of the reports.
At the end of the day, I should point out the old adage if it ain't broke, then don't change it. Access been around for a very long time, but we seen significant investments from the folks in Redmond into this product during the last few years, so it shows no signs of dying anytime soon.
So, one possible suggestion is to keep the status quo, and continue going the way it works now. I mean you stated that you have to continue supporting JET for this anyway so you not getting away from having to use a major part of Access anyway. So, you continue to have to use JET engine anyway. So, you just dumping the report side and you still have use the JET data engine anyway.
However, assuming this decision's been made, I can't really suggest what report writer you should replace the access one with. Obviously considerations for the next report writer should have a seamless path to web even if they are NOW going to be rendered on the desktop. It makes no sense to make a large investment today without web considerations in some fashion.
I do think SQL server reporting services is a good choice due to the web ability. And, as an access developer we also have the option to create web based reports but they also render perfect in the access client on the desktop side (and this works when you have no server and no conversion issues exist when publishing these reports to the web, or using them local on the client). So, even if you don't use access, do choose something that allows reports to render both desktop and web like access 2010 allows.
I would consider building the report system around some .net tools. This would likely not play too well as an embedded report system inside of your existing application, but it would allow you to issue new reports, and you would not have to touch your existing code base for each new report issued. This issuing of new reports that have procedural code needs to be resolved. You likely can now issue new reports without having to modify the main application because those reports can contain code inside. I would be looking to use something that would allow new reports to be built and issued but you not having to issue new edition of your main software. You might not embeed the code in the reports anymore, but you need to palce it somewhere, and hopefully outside of your main application.
Wow, this is a great question and Albert has given you a teriffic answer.
Unfortunately I do not believe there are any magic bullets to solve your problem. I have used Microsoft Access since it's first version, and always felt it's strongest feature was as a report generator, particulary when used with SQL Server. As you undoubtably know, one can often have issues with corrupted Access databases in a multi-user environment and SQL Server addresses that issue very nicely.
To my way of thinking the biggest problem with Access is that Microsoft brought out managed code (.Net) ten years ago now but Access is still a native application. In an ideal world Microsoft would rewrite Access in C# using all the latest features such as improved support for multiple processors etc. Unfortunately I do not expect this to happen any time soon.
Visual Basic for Applications (VBA) was definately far abead of "state of the art" when it was introduced, but today I believe most would agree that coding in VB.Net with Visual Studio is much more productive than continuing to develop in VBA.
SInce the selection of a new report generator is something you will need to live with for several years, perhaps it would be helpful to consider what an "ideal" report generator for the next ten years should look like?
Personally I would want:
1) All the great graphics and ease of skinning and branding that Silverlight provides.
2) Great multiprocessor support (you must have noticed how the UI thread in Access often appears "unresponsive" when running long queries or reports).
3) Support for lots of devices such as cellphones, iPads etc. While today the desktop and web dominate, these are becoming increasingly important (unless for some particular reason they are not important to your customers going forward).
4) Support for modern programming practices such as test driven development, dependency injection etc.
Please do let us know what you decide upon.
This is a long shot, but is there a possibility of using Access to generate a saved PDF and displaying that in your app in a PDF-viewing control that is part of your app, rather than external? Or export to XML or something (I haven't a clue what XML export options are available for reports in recent versions of Access, if any)?
The point is that you'd not have to rewrite the Access reporting logic, but you'd have eliminated the fake embedding and replaced it with something that's really embedded in your application.
What you'd be giving up is the perhaps the options that the Access UI gives the user, but I'm not sure how useful that is (I'd tend to not want those options available!).
Also, you'd be persisting the reports to disk, but I'm not sure this is much of any kind of significant issue, either, but it would entirely depend on the context (I'm assuming you have no 1000-page reports with heavy graphics, etc.).
You could take a look at ActiveReports by Data Dynamics. We use it within our apps for paperwork type reports (eg, invoices) and it's extremely flexible, far more so than what you can achieve with the MS reporting tools. For reports that are genuine reports rather than paperwork we use reporting services. It's been a while since I had to port an access report to active reports, but there is little or nothing you could do in access that you can't do in active reports. I'm also fairly certain that it has a decent tool for import access reports. There's a fully functional evaluation version available for download, which, unless they've changed things, just printes a watermark in the report footer rather than expires after a fixed evaluation period. Well worth a look, I'd say - Here's a link to their site
I won't get into any specifics since I'm not a Microsoft developer, but I can answer on how to integrate a legacy product into the current or new product. As for the 36-month question, see the end of this answer.
Usage Requirements - how do you intend to use the legacy code in the context of your new code?
Identify Use Cases - drill down into usage and create a use case for each transaction between the new and old code.
Identify I/O - drill down into each use case and identify I/O requirements
Write Tests - for each I/O pair, write tests to determine the best way to handle that I/O pair.
Reuse - reuse your tests to create a wrapper/API for the legacy code.
Future - as you replace legacy code with new code, let it match your wrapper/API so you can keep refactoring to a minimum.
If I had 36 months of development time to spend, I would spend 3-6 months writing a wrapper/API and then replace each unit tested I/O pair with new code every 7-10 days utilizing sprints (scrum/agile).
For the data store, I would absolutely move from Access to some SQL server product and prioritize that requirement for the new code.
I've used Crystal, Access (2 - 2007), SQL Reporting and now DevExpress and am very happy with DevExpress's reporting engine. It is specific to .net, but can be utilized by Windows Forms, ASP.net Web pages, WPF and Silverlight. If you are willing to utilize some .net controls, I highly recomend it. It can use just about anything as a datasource and is very flexible. My current projects aren't as complex as some things I have done in the past, but I would venture to say that I would rather do complex reports using the DX engine over any other I have used.
They have an End User designer that includes scripting capabiliities and DX is actively adding functionality.
I would recommend taking a look at: http://devexpress.com/Products/Index/Reporting.xml
Background:
I have a new site in the design phase and am considering using ColdFusion. The Server is currently set-up with ColdFusion and Python (done for me).
It is my choice on what to use and ColdFusion seems intriguing with the tag concept. Having developed sites in PHP and Python the idea of using a new tool seems fun but I want to make sure it is as easy to use as my other two choices with things like URL beautification and scalability.
Are there any common problems with using ColdFusion in regards to scalability and speed of development?
My other choice is to use Python with WebPy or Django.
ColdFusion 9 with a good framework like Sean Cornfeld's FW/1 has plenty of performance and all the functionality of any modern web server development language. It has some great integration features like exchange server support and excel / pdf support out of the box.
Like all tools it may or may not be the right one for you but the gotchas in terms of scalability will usually be with your code, rarely the platform.
Liberally use memcached or the built in ehache in CF9, be smart about your data access strategy, intelligently chunk returned data and you will be fine performance wise.
My approach with CF lately involves using jQuery extensively for client side logic and using CF for the initial page setup and ajax calls to fill tables. That dramatically cuts down on CF specific code and forces nice logic separation. Plus it cuts the dependency on any one platform (aside from the excellent jQuery library).
To specifically answer your question, if you read the [coldfusion] tags here you will see questions are rarely on speed or scalability, it scales fine. A lot of the questions seem to be on places where CF is a fairly thin layer on another tool like Apache Axis (web services) and ExtJs (cfajax) - neither of which you need to use. You will probably need mod-rewrite or IIS rewrite to hide .cfm
Since you have both ColdFusion and Python available to you already, I would carefully consider exactly what it is you're trying to accomplish.
Do you need a gradual learning curve, newbie-friendly language (easy for someone who knows HTML to learn), great documentation, and lots of features that make normally difficult tasks easy? That sounds like a job for ColdFusion.
That said, once you get the basics of ColdFusion down, it's easy to transition into an Object Oriented approach (as others have noted, there are a plethora of MVC frameworks available: FW/1, ColdBox, Fusebox, Model-Glue, Mach-ii, Lightfront, and the list goes on...), and there are also dependency management (DI/IoC) frameworks (my favorite of which is ColdSpring, modeled after Java's Spring framework), and the ability to do Aspect-Oriented Programming, as well. Lastly, there are also several ORM frameworks (Transfer, Reactor, and DataFaucet, if you're using CF8 or earlier, or add Hibernate to the list in CF9+).
ColdFusion also plays nicely with just about everything else out there. It can load and use .Net assemblies, provides native access to Java classes, and makes creating and/or consuming web services (particularly SOAP, but REST is possible) a piece of cake. (I think it even does com/corba, if you feel like using tech from 1991...)
Unfortunately, I've got no experience with Python, so I can't speak to its strengths. Perhaps a Python developer can shed some light there.
As for url rewrting, (again, as others have noted) that's not really done in the language (though you can fudge it); to get a really nice looking URL you really need either mod_rewrite (which can be done without .htaccess, instead the rules would go into your Apache VHosts config file), or with one of the IIS URL Rewriting products.
The "fudging" I alluded to would be a url like: http://example.com/index.cfm/section/action/?search=foo -- the ".cfm" is in the URL so that the request gets handed from the web server (Apache/IIS) to the Application Server (ColdFusion). To get rid of the ".cfm" in the URL, you really do have to use a URL rewriting tool; there's no way around it.
From two years working with CF, for me the biggest gotchas are:
If you're mainly coding using tags (rather than CFScript) and formatting for readability, be prepared for your output to be filled with whitespace. Unlike other scripting languages, the whitespace between statements are actually sent to the client - so if you're looping over something 100 times and outputting the result, all the linebreaks and tabs in the loop source code will appear 100 times. There are ways around this but it's been a while - I'm sure someone on SO has asked the question before, so a quick search will give you your solution.
Related to the whitespace problem, if you're writing a script to be used with AJAX or Flash and you're trying to send xml; even a single space before the DTD can break some of the more fussy parsing engines (jQuery used to fall over like this - I don't know if it still does and flash was a nightmare). When I first did this I spent hours trying to figure out why what looked like well formed XML was causing my script to die.
The later versions aren't so bad, but I was also working on legacy systems where even quite basic functionality was lacking. Quite often you'll find you need to go hunting for a COM or Java library to do the job for you. Again, though, this is in the earlier versions.
CFAJAX was a heavy, cumbersome beast last time I checked - so don't bother, roll your own.
Other than that, I found CF to be a fun language to work with - it has its idiosyncracies like everything else, but by and large it was mostly headache free and fast to work with.
Hope this helps :)
Cheers
Iain
EDIT: Oh, and for reasons best known to Adobe, if you're running the trial version you'll get a lovely fat HTML comment before all of your output - regardless of whether or not you're actually outputting HTML. And yes, because the comment appears before your DTD, be prepared for some browsers (not looking at any one in particular!) to render it like crap. Again - perhaps they've rethought this in the new version...
EDIT#2: You also mentioned URL Rewriting - where I used to work we did this all the time - no problems. If you're running on Apache, use mod_rewrite, if you're running on IIS buy ISAPI Rewrite 3.
do yourself the favor and check out the CFWheels project. it has the url rewriting support and routes that you're looking for. also as a full stack mvc framework, it comes with it's own orm.
It's been a few years, so my information may be a little out of date, but in my experience:
Pros:
Coldfusion is easy to learn, and quick to get something up and running end-to-end.
Cons:
As with many server-side scripting languages, there is no real separation between persistence logic, business logic, and presentation. All of these are typically interwoven throughout a typical Coldfusion source file. This can mean a lot more work if you want to make changes to the database schema of a mature application, for example.
There are some disciplines that can be followed to make things a little more maintainable; "Fusebox" was one. There may be others.
I've been looking recently at Coldfusion for an upcoming job. My background is in ASP.net/MVC and JSP/Servelets.
From what I can tell, Coldfusion is mostly a presentation technology that interfaces with a business layer implemented in some other technology. For the trivial cases, it also looks like you can go straight from the markup to the database much like PHP.
I know this is probably a simplistic view of the product. So what more does it do and what is the business case for using Coldfusion over more heavily hyped web technologies like ASP.net/JSP?
You can definitely write your business layer in ColdFusion, and as you say you can extend that with easy hooks to java and .net objects.
The business case for ColdFusion is that it is a rapid application development platform - the speed that you as a developer can get things done is just insane. There is a lot of built-in functionality, from MS Exchange integration, charting, Excel generation, all the way through to a Hibernate ORM implementation (new in CF9).
There are a few popular, mature MVC frameworks (Model-Glue, Coldbox, Fusebox, onTap, etc) that you can work with, or you can run up your own framework using a pattern that suits your style.
What might be confusing you is that you can choose to write the presentation layer and business layer in ColdFusion tags, and that might be why you think it's not a powerful option for the business layer. CF tags wrap a lot of functionality in an easy to use syntax, but with CF9 you have the option to write ColdFusion Components (CFCs) completely with a script based syntax - that might help you distinguish between presentation (tags) and business logic (script).
The developer edition is free to try, so you really only are losing some time if you give it a go, and I highly recommend you check it out.
Riding on Antony's suggestions, he forgot to mention another MVC framework, ColdFusion on Wheels! We're rapidly approaching a 1.0 release by next month and have an active community developing a slew of plugins. With built a ORM that follows Rails' design, it's easy to pick up. Check it out and give us some feedback.