I want to develop a new powerful GUI for an existing C++ application. I planned to do it as a standalone project in C++/QT, and it would communicate client-server with the existing application.
Recently I've been told that there is another possibility, to create such GUI using Eclipse. I mean that Eclipse can serve not only as an IDE, but also as some kind of framework for new applications.
Is it so?
Is it a good idea to use Eclipse in this way? What to consider?
Can such development be C++ based, or only Java based?
Yes, absolutely, the Eclipse "Rich Client Platform" is an application framework comparable to Qt, in some ways, and superior in other ways. RCP's frameworks are generally more sophisticated and more powerful than anything in Qt. Yes, I realize I'm inviting flames, because people do have religious wars over this. I don't care, I'm entitled to my opinion.
You could include C++ code in your application using the JNI API, but in general, the bulk of the development would be in Java. Ultimately, the deciding factor may just be the resources and skills you have available -- does your team know Java, or not.
As others have said, Eclipse is a platform, not just an IDE, but development using it is definitely in Java. Here's some reference material in case you decide to pursue this approach:
http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Rich_Client_Platform
http://www.vogella.de/articles/EclipseRCP/article.html
Eclipse is built with its own GUI framework - SWT. It is Java-based but apparently there is a way to use it from native C++.
Eclipse is indeed a platform, with the cross-platform UI toolkit SWT and the OSGi plug-in system at its heart. Look at Android: a lot of the operating system is coded in C++, with hooks for normal UI development with Java. This is kind of what you need to do. Be aware that JNI is a pain and is certainly not easy to use, but I'd advise Java for everything except for code that needs to be accelerated, which you would do in C++. Java is fast enough for most tasks.
You can certainly do that. You might also consider Netbeans or Qt's own IDE as well.
I'm hoping to write an open source IDE for a programming language I'm designing. I was wondering if anyone knew of any lightweight IDE's written in C++, that I could use as a starting place. Ideally I want to use something BSD licensed, however I'm willing to consider other licenses if it is required.
Thank you in advance for any help you can provide.
EDIT:
I want to develop a custom interface for each platform. For example, use Objective-C to create a Mac OS X specific interface for it.
Eclipse is the best way to go. However you might want to check
Code::Blocks or
KDevelop
Shameless plug...
You may want to investigate Ecere, an under-appreciated, BSD-licensed SDK. It uses its own language called "eC", an object-oriented extension to C (sort of like C++) that compiles by generating C code.
Ecere is nice in that it's light-weight and easy to use, features markedly missing from other open source IDEs (if you disagree, please enlighten me). It's not nice in that it's buggy and lacking in many respects.
Whether or not the Ecere IDE is easy to re-purpose for your programming language or not, you'll have to see for yourself. It might be easy because Ecere is not humongous, and the Ecere maintainer (not me) will be more than happy to help you along. On the other hand, maybe writing an Eclipse plugin would be easier, though I can't vouch for it at all, as I don't use Eclipse.
The advantage of Ecere, for what you want to do, is that it's a lightweight IDE with good access to the C, and has exactly the license you're looking for. The disadvantage is that it's not a well-established platform with a lot of users.
I was pretty happy with Eclipse, except for perf.
I would recommend taking a look at Qt Creator; Because it is written on top of the Qt SDK you get a cross-platform version (almost) for free.
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I hope this question does not come off as broad as it may seem at first. I am designing a software application that I would like to be both cross-platform and modular. I am still in the planning phase and can pick practically any language and toolset.
This makes things harder, not easier, because there are seemingly so many ways of accomplishing both of the goals (modularity, platform agnosticism).
My basic premise is that security, data storage, interaction with the operating system, and configuration should all be handled by a "container" application - but most of the other functionality will be supplied through plug-in modules. If I had to describe it at a high level (without completely giving away my idea), it would be a single application that can do many different jobs, all dedicated to the same goal (there are lots of disparate things to do, but all the data has to interact and be highly available).
I find myself wrestling with not so much how to do it (I can think of lots of ways), but which method is best.
For example, I know that Eclipse practically embodies what I am describing, but I find Java applications in general (and Eclipse is no exception) to be too large and slow for what I need. Ditto desktop apps written Python and Ruby (which are excellent languages!)
I don't mind recompiling the code base for different platforms as native exectables. Yet, C and C++ have their own set of issues.
As a C# developer, I have a preference for managed code, but I am not at all sold on Mono, yet (I could be convinced).
Does anyone have any ideas/experiences/ specific favorite frameworks to share?
Just to cite an example: for .NET apps there are the CAB (Composite Application Block) and the Composite Application Guidance for WPF. Both are mainly implementations of a set of several design patterns focused on modularity and loose coupling between components similar to a plug-in architecture: you have an IOC framework, MVC base classes, a loosely coupled event broker, dynamic loading of modules and other stuff.
So I suppose that kind of pattern infrastructure is what you are trying to find, just not specifically for .NET. But if you see the CAB as a set of pattern implementations, you can see that almost every language and platform has some form of already built-in or third party frameworks for individual patterns.
So my take would be:
Study (if you are not familiar with) some of those design patterns. You could take as an example the CAB framework for WPF documentation: Patterns in the Composite Application Library
Design your architecture thinking on which of those patterns you think would be useful for what you want to achieve first without thinking in specific pattern implementations or products.
Once you have your 'architectural requirements' defined more specifically, look for individual frameworks that help accomplish each one of those patterns/features for the language you decide to use and put together your own application framework based on them.
I agree that the hard part is to make all this platform independent. I really cannot think on any other solution to choose a mature platform independent language like Java.
Are you planning a desktop or web application?
Everyone around here seems to think that Mono is great, but I still do not think it is ready for industry use, I would equate mono to where wine is, great idea; when it works it works well, and when it doesn't...well your out of luck. mod_mono for Apache is extremely glitchy and is hard to get running correctly.
If your aiming for the desktop, nothing beats the eclipse RCP (Rich Client Platform) framework: http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Rich_Client_Platform.
You can build window, linux, mac all under the same code and all UI components are native to the OS. And RCP wins in modularity hands down, it has a plug-in architecture that is unrivaled (from what I have seen)
I have worked with RCP for 1.5 years now and I dunno what else could replace it, it is #1 in it's niche.
If your totally opposed to java I would look into wxWidgets with either python or C++
If you want platform independence, then you'll have to trade off between performance and development effort. C++ may be faster than Java (this is debatable FWIW) but you'll get platform independence a lot more easily with Java. Python and Ruby are in the same boat.
I doubt that .NET would be much faster than Java (they're both VM languages after all), but the big problem with .NET is platform independence. Mono has a noble goal and surprisingly good results so far but it will always be playing catch-up with Microsoft on Windows. You might be able to accept its limitations but it's still not the same as having identical multiplatform environments that Java, Python, and Ruby have. Also: the .NET development and support tools are heavily skewed towards Windows, and probably always will be.
IMO, your best bet is to target Java... or, at the very least, the JVM. If you don't like the Java language (and as a C# dev I'm guessing that's not the case) then you at least have options like Jython, JRuby, and Scala. With the JVM, you get very good platform independence, good performance, and access to a huge number of libraries and support tools. There's almost always a Java library, port or implementation that will do what you need it to do. I don't think any other platform out there has the same number of options; there's real value in that flexibility.
As for modularity: that's more about how you build the software than what platform you use. I don't know much about plugin architectures like you describe but I'm guessing that it will be possible in pretty much any modern platform you pick.
If you plan on doing python development, you can always use pyrex to optimize some of the slower parts.
With my limited Mono experience I can say I'm quite sold on it. The fact that there is active development and a lot of ongoing effort to bring it up to spec with the latest .Net technologies is encouraging. It is incredibly useful to be able to use existing .Net skills on multiple platforms. I had similar issues with performance when attempting to accomplish some basic tasks in Python + PyGTK -- maybe they can be made to perform in the right hands but it is nice to not have to worry about performance 90% of the time.
For desktop applications, writing it in an interpreted language, and using a cross-platform UI toolkit like wxWidgets will get you a long way towards platform independence (you just have to be careful not to use any other modules that aren't cross-platform, use things like Python's os.path module, in place of doing things like config_path = "/home/$USER")
That said, to make a good cross-platform application, you will have to do some things differently on each platform..
For example, OS X is probably the most different - preferences are usually stored in ~/Library/Prefernces/ as .plists, UI's are generally based around floating windows, with a single menu-bar docked at the top-of-screen.
I suppose this is where the modularity comes into play.. With the preferences example above, you could have a class UserConfig, of which you have OS-specific versions of. The Windows one stores config data in the appropriate Application Data folder, or the registry. The Mac OS one uses .plist files on ~/Library/Preferences/, and the unix'y one uses ~/.dotfiles.
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C++ just sucks too much of my time by making me micro-manage my own memory, making me type far too much (hello std::vector<Thingy>::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()), and boring me with long compile times. What's the single best alternative for serious real-time graphics programming? Garbage collection is a must (as is the ability to avoid its use when necessary), and speed must be competitive with C++. A reasonable story for accessing C libs is also a must.
(Full disclosure: I have my own answer to this, but I'm interested to see what others have found to be good alternatives to C++ for real-time graphics work.)
Edit: Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies. Given that there's really no "right" answer to this question I won't be selecting any particular answer. Besides I'd just pick the language I happen to like as a C++ alternative, which wouldn't really be fair.
What about D Programming Language?
Some links requested in the comment:
Win32 Api
Derelict (Multimedia lib)
I wouldn't discard C++. In fact, I would consider adding Boost to your C++ library, which makes the language much more usable. Your example would become:
BOOST_FOREACH( Thingy& t, lostOfThingys ) {
// do something with 't'
}
Boost has tons of tools that help make C++ a better language.
C# is a nice language that fits your requirements, and it is definitely suited for graphics, thanks to the efforts of Microsoft to provide it with great tools and libraries like Visual Studio and XNA.
Real-time + garbage collection don't match very well I'm afraid.
It's a bit hard to make any real-time response guarantees if a garbage collector can kick in at any time and spend an undefined amount of processing...
I disagree with your premise. When used carefully and properly, C++ is a great language, especially for a domain like real-time graphics, where speed is of the essence.
Memory management becomes easy if you design your system well, and use stl containers and smart pointers.
std::vector::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()) will become much shorter if you use
using namespace std;
typedef vector::const_iterator ThingyConstIter;
And you can shorten compile times significantly by breaking up your systems into reasonably self-contained modules, by using precompiled headers, or by using the PIMPL idiom.
Perhaps a hybrid approach. Python and C++ make a good combination (see, for example, PyGame).
Some variation of Lisp that compiles to machine code could be almost as fast as C++ for this kind of programming. The Naughty Dog team created a version of Lisp called Game Oriented Assembly Lisp, which they used to create several AAA titles, including the Jak and Daxter series. The two major impediments to a Lisp approach in the game industry would be the entrenched nature of C/C++ development (both tools and human assets are heavily invested in C/C++), as well as the difficulty of finding talented engineers who are stars in both the game programming domain and the Lisp language.
Many programming teams in the industry are shifting to a hybrid approach wherein the real-time code, especially graphics and physics code, is written in C or C++, but game logic is done in a higher-level scripting language, which is accessible to and editable by programmers and non-programmers alike. Lua and Python are both popular for higher-level scripting.
Let's not forget to mention the new 'auto' use:
auto it = lotsOfThingys.begin(); // Let the compiler figure it out.
auto it2 = lotsOfFoos.begin();
if (it==it2) // It's still strongly typed; a Thingy iter is not a Foo iter.
As a developer/researcher/professor of 3D VR applications for some 20 years I would suggest there is no alternative (except possibly C). The only way to reduce latency and enable real-time interaction is an optimized compiled language (eg C or C++) with access to a fast relaible 3D graphics library such as OpenGL. While I agree it is flustrating to have to code everything, this is also essential for performanc and optimization.
Sometimes, looking outside the beaten path you can find a real gem. You might want to consider PureBasic (Don't let the name mislead you). Here's some details:
PureBasic Features
Machine Code (Assembly) executables (FASM)
In-line Assembly support
No run-times needed (no DLLs needed,etc.) 1 executable file
Tiny executables (as small or smaller/as fast or faster than C++ w/out the runtime)
You can write DLLs
Multi-thread support
Full OS API support
Multi-platform support
Windows 95-2003
Linux
Mac-OS X
Amiga
2D & 3D game development
DirectX
OGRE
Generous Licensing
Inexpensive (79 Euros or about $112)
Life-time license (all future updates & versions included)
One price for all platforms
External Library support
3rd party DLLs
User Libraries
On-line Support
Responsive development team led by it's creator
On-line forum
One place for answers (don’t have to go all over the net)
Huge amount of sample code (try code out while in IE with IEtool)
Fast replies to questions
Bonus learning (alternative to learning C++)
API
Structures
Interfaces
Pointers
Visit the online forum to get a better idea of PureBasic (http://www.purebasic.fr/english/index.php) or the main site: www.purebasic.com
I completely agree with the mention of C# for graphics programming. It has the slight disadvantage of being a managed language and allowing the garbage collector free reign over your application is framerate suicide after a while but with some relatively intelligent pool allocations made early in the program's life any real issues can be avoided.
Several people have already mentioned XNA, which is incredibly friendly and well-documented and I would like to echo that recommendation as well. I'm personally using it for my hobby game projects and it has treated me very well.
XNA isn't the only alternative, though. There is also SlimDX which is under constant development as a means of providing a lean wrapper of DirectX in a similar fashion as Managed DirectX (which was, I believe, discontinued by Microsoft in favor of XNA). Both are worthy of research: http://code.google.com/p/slimdx/
There are no true alternatives for big AAA titles, especially on the consoles. For smaller titles C# should do.
C# is a good answer here - it has a fair garbage collection (although you'd have to profile it quite a bit - to change the way you handle things now that the entire memory handling is out of your hands), it is simple to use, have a lot of examples and is well documented.
In the 3D department it gives full support for shaders and effects and so - that would be my choice.
Still, C# is not as efficient as C++ and is slower due to overhead, so if it is speed and the flexibility to use any trick in the book you like (with pointers and assembly if you like to get your hands dirty) - stick to C++ and the price would be writing way more code as you mentioned, but having full control over everything including memory management.
I would say the D programming language is a good option. You can link to C object files and interface with C++ code through C libraries. D has garbage collection, inline assembly, and game developers have created bindings to SDL and OpenGL libraries, and are also actively working on new game development apis. I love D. Too bad my job doesn't demand it's use. :(
Like James (hopkin), for me, the hybrid approach is the best solution. Python and C++ is a good choice, but other style like C#/C++ works. All depends of your graphical context. For game, XNA is a good platform (limited to win32), in this case C#/C++ is the best solution. For scientific visualization, Python/C++ is accepted (like vtk's bindings in python). For mobile game JAVA/C++ can works...
If you are targeting Windows, C++/CLI (Microsoft's .NET 'managed' dialect of C++) is an interesting possibility, particularly if you want to leverage your C++ experience. You can mix native code (e.g. calls to C-style libraries) with .NET managed code quite seamlessly, and take advantage of .NET GC and libraries.
As far as concerns about GC impacting 'real time' performance, I think those tend to be overblown. The multi-generational .NET GC is very good at never taking much time to do a collection, unless you are in some kind of critical low-memory situation. I write .NET code that interacts with electronic derivatives exchanges, where time delays == lots of $$$, and we have never had a GC-related issue. A few milliseconds is a long, long time for the GC, but not for a human interacting with a piece of software, even a 'real time' game. If you really need true "real time" performance (for medical devices, process control, etc.) then you can't use Windows anyway - it's just not a real-time OS.
Lot of game engines can fit your need, I suppose. For example, using SDL or Cairo, if portability is needed. Lot of scripting languages (coming in general with easy syntax and garbage collection) have binding to these canvas.
Flash might be another alternative.
I will just point out Processing, which is an open source programming language and environment for people who want to program images, animation, and interactions.
Actually, it is a thin wrapper around Java, making it look like a scripting language: it has a (primitive) IDE when you can type a few lines of code and hit Run without even having to save the file. Actually it wraps the code around a class and adds a main() call, compiles it and run it in a window.
Lot of people use it for real-time exhibitions (VJ and similar).
It has the power and limitations of Java, but adds out of the box a number of nice wrappers (libraries) to simplify access to Java2D, OpenGL, SVG, etc.
Somehow, it has become a model of simple graphics language: there are several applications trying to mimic Processing in other languages, like Ruby, Scala or Python. One of the most impressive is a JavaScript implementation, using the canvas component implemented in Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc.
I vote c++0x. Partial support is already available in gcc-4.3+ using the -std=c++0x flag.
Would 'C' be too obvious an answer?
I have very successfully used C++ for the engine, with the application written in Lua on top. JavaScript is also very practical, now the latest generation of JIT based JS engines are around (tracemonkey, V8 etc).
I think C++ will be with us for a while yet; even Tim Sweeney hasn't actually switched to Haskell (pdf) yet, AFAIK :-)
Java and LWJGL (OpenGL wrapper) has worked well for me. If you're looking for more of a scene graph type library like Orge have a look at jMonkeyEngine which we used to create a google earth type application (see www.skapeworld.com). If you're sensible with object creation the garbage collection is a non issue.
If your target is a PC, I think you can try C#, or embed Lua in your C++ app and run scripts for 'high-level' stuff. However if your target is a console, you must manage your own memory!
Objective-C looks like a good match for your requirements (the latest version with optional GC), although it is too dynamic and Smalltalk-like for my taste.
XNA is your best bet I think. Being supported by the .NET framework you can build for a Windows or Xbox 360 platform by simply changing a setting in Game Studio. Best yet, all the tools are free!
If you decide to go with XNA you can easily get started using their quickstart guide
XNA Quickstart guide
It has been a rewarding and fun experiance for me so far, and a nice break from the memory management of C++.
Garbage collection is a must (as is
the ability to avoid its use when
necessary)
You can't disable a garbage collector temporarily. You would need a deterministic garbage collector then. But such a beast does come with a performance hit also. I think BEA JRockit is such a beast and then you should stick to Java.
Just to comment on your example; typedef is your friend...
typedef std::vector<Thingy> Thingys;
Thingys::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()
Don't overlook independent languages in your quest. Emergence BASIC from Ionic Wind Software has a built in DirectX 9 engine, supports OOP and can easily interface with C libraries.
http://www.ionicwind.com
James.
The best enviroment for your project is the one you get your task done in the fastest way possible. This - especially for 3D-graphics - includes libraries.
Depending on the task, you may get away with some minor directx hacking. Then you could use .NET and slimdx. Managed languages tend to be faster to programm and easier to debug.
Perhaps you need a really good 3D-engine? Try Ogre3D or Irrlicht. You need commercial grade quality (one might argue that Ogre3D offers that) - go for Cryengine or Unreal. With Ogre3D and Irrlicht you might uses .NET as well, though the ports are not always up to date and plugins are not as easyly included as in the C++ versions. For Cryengine/Unrealengine you won't have a real choice I guess.
You need it more portable? OpenGL for the rescue - though you might need some wrapper (e.g. SDL).
You need a GUI as well? wxWidgets, QT might be a possiblity.
You already have a toolchain? Your libraries need to be able to handle the file formats.
You want to write a library? C / C++ might be a solution, since most of the world can use C / C++ libraries. Perhaps with the use of COM?
There are still a lot of projects/libraries I did not mention (XNA, Boost, ...) and if you want to create some program that does not only display 3D-graphics, you might have other needs as well (Input, Sound, Network, AI, Database, GUI, ...)
To sum it up: A programming language is a tool to reach a goal. It has to be seen in the context of the task at hand. The task has its own needs and these needs may chose the language for you (e.g. you need a certain library to get a feature that takes long to programm and you can only access the library with language X).
If you need the one-does-nearly-all: try C++/CLI (perhaps in combination with C# for easier syntax).
Good question.
As for the 'making me type far too much', C++0x seems to address most of it
as mentioned:
auto it = lotsOfThingys.begin()) // ... deduce type, just like in *ML
VS2010beta implements this already.
As for the memory management - for efficiency - you will have to keep good track of memory allocations, with or without garbage collection (ie, make memory-pools, re-use allocated object sometimes) anyhow, so that eventually whether your environment is garbage collected or not, matters less. You'll have to explicitly call the gc() as well, to keep the memory from fragmenting.
Having consistent ways to manage memory is important anywhere.
RAII - is a killer feature of C++
Another thing - is that memory is just one resource, you still have to keep track of other resources with a GC, so RIAA.
Anyhow, C# - is a nice alternative in many respects, I find it a very nice language, especially the ability to write functional-style code in it (the cute lambda -> syntax, map/select 'LINQ' syntax etc), thus the possibility to write parallel code; while it's still a 'standard curly-brackets', when you (or your colleagues) need it.
Have a look to Delphi/Pascal Object and some exemples :
http://www.delphigamer.com or http://glscene.cjb.net/
You can look at Ada. There is no garbage collector but this language is oftenly used for real-time system needing high reliability. That means less debuging times for your 3D applications.
And, you can also look at Haskell, if you don't know the functional paradigm this language will look weird to you, but it's worth a bit of your time. Tim Sweeney (EPIC Inc) is considering this language as a C++ alternative.