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C++ just sucks too much of my time by making me micro-manage my own memory, making me type far too much (hello std::vector<Thingy>::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()), and boring me with long compile times. What's the single best alternative for serious real-time graphics programming? Garbage collection is a must (as is the ability to avoid its use when necessary), and speed must be competitive with C++. A reasonable story for accessing C libs is also a must.
(Full disclosure: I have my own answer to this, but I'm interested to see what others have found to be good alternatives to C++ for real-time graphics work.)
Edit: Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies. Given that there's really no "right" answer to this question I won't be selecting any particular answer. Besides I'd just pick the language I happen to like as a C++ alternative, which wouldn't really be fair.
What about D Programming Language?
Some links requested in the comment:
Win32 Api
Derelict (Multimedia lib)
I wouldn't discard C++. In fact, I would consider adding Boost to your C++ library, which makes the language much more usable. Your example would become:
BOOST_FOREACH( Thingy& t, lostOfThingys ) {
// do something with 't'
}
Boost has tons of tools that help make C++ a better language.
C# is a nice language that fits your requirements, and it is definitely suited for graphics, thanks to the efforts of Microsoft to provide it with great tools and libraries like Visual Studio and XNA.
Real-time + garbage collection don't match very well I'm afraid.
It's a bit hard to make any real-time response guarantees if a garbage collector can kick in at any time and spend an undefined amount of processing...
I disagree with your premise. When used carefully and properly, C++ is a great language, especially for a domain like real-time graphics, where speed is of the essence.
Memory management becomes easy if you design your system well, and use stl containers and smart pointers.
std::vector::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()) will become much shorter if you use
using namespace std;
typedef vector::const_iterator ThingyConstIter;
And you can shorten compile times significantly by breaking up your systems into reasonably self-contained modules, by using precompiled headers, or by using the PIMPL idiom.
Perhaps a hybrid approach. Python and C++ make a good combination (see, for example, PyGame).
Some variation of Lisp that compiles to machine code could be almost as fast as C++ for this kind of programming. The Naughty Dog team created a version of Lisp called Game Oriented Assembly Lisp, which they used to create several AAA titles, including the Jak and Daxter series. The two major impediments to a Lisp approach in the game industry would be the entrenched nature of C/C++ development (both tools and human assets are heavily invested in C/C++), as well as the difficulty of finding talented engineers who are stars in both the game programming domain and the Lisp language.
Many programming teams in the industry are shifting to a hybrid approach wherein the real-time code, especially graphics and physics code, is written in C or C++, but game logic is done in a higher-level scripting language, which is accessible to and editable by programmers and non-programmers alike. Lua and Python are both popular for higher-level scripting.
Let's not forget to mention the new 'auto' use:
auto it = lotsOfThingys.begin(); // Let the compiler figure it out.
auto it2 = lotsOfFoos.begin();
if (it==it2) // It's still strongly typed; a Thingy iter is not a Foo iter.
As a developer/researcher/professor of 3D VR applications for some 20 years I would suggest there is no alternative (except possibly C). The only way to reduce latency and enable real-time interaction is an optimized compiled language (eg C or C++) with access to a fast relaible 3D graphics library such as OpenGL. While I agree it is flustrating to have to code everything, this is also essential for performanc and optimization.
Sometimes, looking outside the beaten path you can find a real gem. You might want to consider PureBasic (Don't let the name mislead you). Here's some details:
PureBasic Features
Machine Code (Assembly) executables (FASM)
In-line Assembly support
No run-times needed (no DLLs needed,etc.) 1 executable file
Tiny executables (as small or smaller/as fast or faster than C++ w/out the runtime)
You can write DLLs
Multi-thread support
Full OS API support
Multi-platform support
Windows 95-2003
Linux
Mac-OS X
Amiga
2D & 3D game development
DirectX
OGRE
Generous Licensing
Inexpensive (79 Euros or about $112)
Life-time license (all future updates & versions included)
One price for all platforms
External Library support
3rd party DLLs
User Libraries
On-line Support
Responsive development team led by it's creator
On-line forum
One place for answers (don’t have to go all over the net)
Huge amount of sample code (try code out while in IE with IEtool)
Fast replies to questions
Bonus learning (alternative to learning C++)
API
Structures
Interfaces
Pointers
Visit the online forum to get a better idea of PureBasic (http://www.purebasic.fr/english/index.php) or the main site: www.purebasic.com
I completely agree with the mention of C# for graphics programming. It has the slight disadvantage of being a managed language and allowing the garbage collector free reign over your application is framerate suicide after a while but with some relatively intelligent pool allocations made early in the program's life any real issues can be avoided.
Several people have already mentioned XNA, which is incredibly friendly and well-documented and I would like to echo that recommendation as well. I'm personally using it for my hobby game projects and it has treated me very well.
XNA isn't the only alternative, though. There is also SlimDX which is under constant development as a means of providing a lean wrapper of DirectX in a similar fashion as Managed DirectX (which was, I believe, discontinued by Microsoft in favor of XNA). Both are worthy of research: http://code.google.com/p/slimdx/
There are no true alternatives for big AAA titles, especially on the consoles. For smaller titles C# should do.
C# is a good answer here - it has a fair garbage collection (although you'd have to profile it quite a bit - to change the way you handle things now that the entire memory handling is out of your hands), it is simple to use, have a lot of examples and is well documented.
In the 3D department it gives full support for shaders and effects and so - that would be my choice.
Still, C# is not as efficient as C++ and is slower due to overhead, so if it is speed and the flexibility to use any trick in the book you like (with pointers and assembly if you like to get your hands dirty) - stick to C++ and the price would be writing way more code as you mentioned, but having full control over everything including memory management.
I would say the D programming language is a good option. You can link to C object files and interface with C++ code through C libraries. D has garbage collection, inline assembly, and game developers have created bindings to SDL and OpenGL libraries, and are also actively working on new game development apis. I love D. Too bad my job doesn't demand it's use. :(
Like James (hopkin), for me, the hybrid approach is the best solution. Python and C++ is a good choice, but other style like C#/C++ works. All depends of your graphical context. For game, XNA is a good platform (limited to win32), in this case C#/C++ is the best solution. For scientific visualization, Python/C++ is accepted (like vtk's bindings in python). For mobile game JAVA/C++ can works...
If you are targeting Windows, C++/CLI (Microsoft's .NET 'managed' dialect of C++) is an interesting possibility, particularly if you want to leverage your C++ experience. You can mix native code (e.g. calls to C-style libraries) with .NET managed code quite seamlessly, and take advantage of .NET GC and libraries.
As far as concerns about GC impacting 'real time' performance, I think those tend to be overblown. The multi-generational .NET GC is very good at never taking much time to do a collection, unless you are in some kind of critical low-memory situation. I write .NET code that interacts with electronic derivatives exchanges, where time delays == lots of $$$, and we have never had a GC-related issue. A few milliseconds is a long, long time for the GC, but not for a human interacting with a piece of software, even a 'real time' game. If you really need true "real time" performance (for medical devices, process control, etc.) then you can't use Windows anyway - it's just not a real-time OS.
Lot of game engines can fit your need, I suppose. For example, using SDL or Cairo, if portability is needed. Lot of scripting languages (coming in general with easy syntax and garbage collection) have binding to these canvas.
Flash might be another alternative.
I will just point out Processing, which is an open source programming language and environment for people who want to program images, animation, and interactions.
Actually, it is a thin wrapper around Java, making it look like a scripting language: it has a (primitive) IDE when you can type a few lines of code and hit Run without even having to save the file. Actually it wraps the code around a class and adds a main() call, compiles it and run it in a window.
Lot of people use it for real-time exhibitions (VJ and similar).
It has the power and limitations of Java, but adds out of the box a number of nice wrappers (libraries) to simplify access to Java2D, OpenGL, SVG, etc.
Somehow, it has become a model of simple graphics language: there are several applications trying to mimic Processing in other languages, like Ruby, Scala or Python. One of the most impressive is a JavaScript implementation, using the canvas component implemented in Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc.
I vote c++0x. Partial support is already available in gcc-4.3+ using the -std=c++0x flag.
Would 'C' be too obvious an answer?
I have very successfully used C++ for the engine, with the application written in Lua on top. JavaScript is also very practical, now the latest generation of JIT based JS engines are around (tracemonkey, V8 etc).
I think C++ will be with us for a while yet; even Tim Sweeney hasn't actually switched to Haskell (pdf) yet, AFAIK :-)
Java and LWJGL (OpenGL wrapper) has worked well for me. If you're looking for more of a scene graph type library like Orge have a look at jMonkeyEngine which we used to create a google earth type application (see www.skapeworld.com). If you're sensible with object creation the garbage collection is a non issue.
If your target is a PC, I think you can try C#, or embed Lua in your C++ app and run scripts for 'high-level' stuff. However if your target is a console, you must manage your own memory!
Objective-C looks like a good match for your requirements (the latest version with optional GC), although it is too dynamic and Smalltalk-like for my taste.
XNA is your best bet I think. Being supported by the .NET framework you can build for a Windows or Xbox 360 platform by simply changing a setting in Game Studio. Best yet, all the tools are free!
If you decide to go with XNA you can easily get started using their quickstart guide
XNA Quickstart guide
It has been a rewarding and fun experiance for me so far, and a nice break from the memory management of C++.
Garbage collection is a must (as is
the ability to avoid its use when
necessary)
You can't disable a garbage collector temporarily. You would need a deterministic garbage collector then. But such a beast does come with a performance hit also. I think BEA JRockit is such a beast and then you should stick to Java.
Just to comment on your example; typedef is your friend...
typedef std::vector<Thingy> Thingys;
Thingys::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()
Don't overlook independent languages in your quest. Emergence BASIC from Ionic Wind Software has a built in DirectX 9 engine, supports OOP and can easily interface with C libraries.
http://www.ionicwind.com
James.
The best enviroment for your project is the one you get your task done in the fastest way possible. This - especially for 3D-graphics - includes libraries.
Depending on the task, you may get away with some minor directx hacking. Then you could use .NET and slimdx. Managed languages tend to be faster to programm and easier to debug.
Perhaps you need a really good 3D-engine? Try Ogre3D or Irrlicht. You need commercial grade quality (one might argue that Ogre3D offers that) - go for Cryengine or Unreal. With Ogre3D and Irrlicht you might uses .NET as well, though the ports are not always up to date and plugins are not as easyly included as in the C++ versions. For Cryengine/Unrealengine you won't have a real choice I guess.
You need it more portable? OpenGL for the rescue - though you might need some wrapper (e.g. SDL).
You need a GUI as well? wxWidgets, QT might be a possiblity.
You already have a toolchain? Your libraries need to be able to handle the file formats.
You want to write a library? C / C++ might be a solution, since most of the world can use C / C++ libraries. Perhaps with the use of COM?
There are still a lot of projects/libraries I did not mention (XNA, Boost, ...) and if you want to create some program that does not only display 3D-graphics, you might have other needs as well (Input, Sound, Network, AI, Database, GUI, ...)
To sum it up: A programming language is a tool to reach a goal. It has to be seen in the context of the task at hand. The task has its own needs and these needs may chose the language for you (e.g. you need a certain library to get a feature that takes long to programm and you can only access the library with language X).
If you need the one-does-nearly-all: try C++/CLI (perhaps in combination with C# for easier syntax).
Good question.
As for the 'making me type far too much', C++0x seems to address most of it
as mentioned:
auto it = lotsOfThingys.begin()) // ... deduce type, just like in *ML
VS2010beta implements this already.
As for the memory management - for efficiency - you will have to keep good track of memory allocations, with or without garbage collection (ie, make memory-pools, re-use allocated object sometimes) anyhow, so that eventually whether your environment is garbage collected or not, matters less. You'll have to explicitly call the gc() as well, to keep the memory from fragmenting.
Having consistent ways to manage memory is important anywhere.
RAII - is a killer feature of C++
Another thing - is that memory is just one resource, you still have to keep track of other resources with a GC, so RIAA.
Anyhow, C# - is a nice alternative in many respects, I find it a very nice language, especially the ability to write functional-style code in it (the cute lambda -> syntax, map/select 'LINQ' syntax etc), thus the possibility to write parallel code; while it's still a 'standard curly-brackets', when you (or your colleagues) need it.
Have a look to Delphi/Pascal Object and some exemples :
http://www.delphigamer.com or http://glscene.cjb.net/
You can look at Ada. There is no garbage collector but this language is oftenly used for real-time system needing high reliability. That means less debuging times for your 3D applications.
And, you can also look at Haskell, if you don't know the functional paradigm this language will look weird to you, but it's worth a bit of your time. Tim Sweeney (EPIC Inc) is considering this language as a C++ alternative.
Related
What's this about?
We have a C++ application dealing with image processing and computer vision on videos using OpenCV, we're going to rewrite it from scratch and need some help deciding what technologies to use. More specifically, I need help on how to choose the technology I'd use.
About the app
The app's functionality is divided in modules that are called in an order defined by a configuration XML file and can also be changed in runtime, but not in realtime (i.e. the application doesn't need to close, but the processing will start from scratch). These modules share data in a central datapool.
Why are we starting from scratch?
This application wasn't planned to be as dynamic as it currently strives to be, so it's grown to be a collection of buggy patches, macros and workarounds; it's now full of memory leaks, unnecessary QT dependencies, slow conversions between QT and OpenCV image formats and compilation and testing times have grown too much.
Language choice
The original code used C++, just because the guy who originally started the project only knew C++. This may be a good choice, because we need it to be as fast as possible, but there may be better choices to account for the dynamic nature of the application.
We're limited by the languages supported by OpenCV (C++, Java and Python mainly; although I've read there is also support for Ruby, Ch, C# and any JVM language)
What is needed
Speed: We're aiming for realtime tracking. This may rule out Python and Ruby.
Class Instantiation by name: Although our C++ macros and class registration system work, a language designed to be dynamic that has it's own runtime would be nice. Maybe Objective-C++, or Java.
What would be ideal
Module/Plugin/Extension/Component Framework: Why reinvent the wheel, using a good framework for this would let us focus on what's special about our app. There are many options here. Objective-C has it's NSBundles; C++ has libraries like Boost.Extension, Pluma, DynObj, FxEngine, etc; C has C-Pluff; I'd even say there are too many options.
Runtime class loading and reloading: From a developing point of view, it would be interesting to be able to compile and reload just one module. I've seen this done in via code injection in Objective-C and using Java's reflection.
What am I missing?
I have too many interesting options!
Here's where I need help, based on your experiences in modular app development, with this constraints, what kind of language/framework feature should I be looking for?
What question should I make myself about this project that would let me narrow my search?
Edit
I hadn't noticed that OpenCV had GPU bindings only for C++, so I'm stuck with it.
Now that the language is fixed, the search has narrowed a lot. I could use Objective-C++ to get the dynamism needed (Obj-C runtime + NSBundle from Cocoa/GnuStep/Cocotron), which sounds complicated; or C++ with a framework.
So I'll now narrow my question to:
Is using NSBundle in a crossplatform way with Objective-C++ easier than it sounds?
What C++ framework will provide me with hot-swappable modules?
The main reason for swapping modules in runtime is to be able to change code in a fast way, would Runtime-Compiled C++ be a better solution?
Meta: I did my research on how to ask a question like this, I hope it's acceptable.
"What question should I make myself about this project that would let me narrow my search?"
if you need gpu support(cuda/ocl), your only choice is c++.
you can safely discard C, as it won't be supported in the near future
have no fear of python, even if you need direct pixel access, that's all numpy arrays (running c-code again)
i'd be a bit sceptical of ruby, c# ch and the like, since those bindings are community based, and might not be up to date / maintained properly, while the java & python bindings are machine - generated from the c++ api, and are part of the official distribution.
If you're looking for portability and have large memory for disposal then you can go with Java.
The performance hit between C++ and Java is not that bad. For conversion between Mat and other image format I'm still not sure, coz it needs deep copy to perform that, so if your code can display the image in openCV native format then you can fasten the application
pro :
You can stop worrying about memory leak
The project is much more portable compared to C/C++(this can be wrong if you can avoid using primitive datatypes which size is non consistent and for example always use int*_t in C)
cons:
slower than C/C++
more memory and CPU clock needed
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jtp09275/index.html
I recently started C++. I am using PHP right now and decided to take a look at C++. Web programming had me working with a couple of languages, with a couple of people. I wanted to do programming where I only had to bother with one language and create small utility apps (mostly not web-based). I wanted a compiled, strongly-type language without memorizing a tome of classes. Basically I wanted to learn C++ for the following:
mobile programming (I don't ever want to go touching Java, and I don't have a Mac for Objective C or IPhone SDK)
small desktop apps like DTRs, POSs
creating small desktop-based games
creating small Air-like applications that can access the web for additional content
I heard that C++ is not beginner-friendly and is mostly used for huge projects with lots of calculations and fine details (like 3D games). Is it practical or even possible for me to use C++ for the above cases? (Sorry, I haven't delved on C++ that much yet, so aside from "huge, monolithic project", I don't know any other uses for it)
You can certainly use C++ in all the areas you mention, though whether it is best of breed for any of them is open to debate. C++ is very large and complex language, and requires a fair bit of effort to get up to speed on. If I were you, I would pick one of the areas you mention that you are most interested in, and then find out which language(s) are best suited for that area and learn that.
If you are set on learning C++ you will need to read at least one book on it - you cannot learn it from internet resources alone. See this question The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List for a book list.
On the droid you can use other languages aside from Java - check out their ASE (Active Scripting Environment). C++ / C should really only be used when you have no other choice - i.e. speed critical code, operating systems etc. It's very easy to make a mistake that's difficult to diagnose and there are lots of task where it'll take way longer than it should to write and odds are others have already done so and done it way better - reinventing the wheel is bad. If it interests you though by all means learn and eventually you may master it. It's an excellent skill to have.
It's also not a completely object oriented language however, it's a hybrid one that supports most object oriented features, but some such as inheritance and polymorphism are a bit awkward to deal with in C++ - for example you have to define methods as virtual in base classes in order to be allowed to redefine them in subclasses - sort of like predicting the future - will this method every be desired to be redefined by an inheritor? Really what happens in that case is you make the base class method virtual later on to enable it to be redefinable - that is if you happen to have access to the source code to do just that - if not then oh well. For an example of this confusing stuff in C++ and other gotchas: Pitfalls
Look at other languages such as Ruby or Python - in particular Stackless Python where a combination of it and C++ (used where necessary) was used to create EVE Online as well as the functional languages such Erlang and Haskell.
For 2, 3 and 4, I recommend C# over C++, for the reasons I wrote here.
About 1, you can do iPhone development with .NET but I've never tried it and I don't know how viable it is.
Edit
To answer your actual question: yes, it's totally practical to write small and large desktop apps in C++. Especially if you use quality tools like Visual Studio and Qt. It's just that I think it'd waste a lot of your time for no reason, unless you intend to go into professional game development eventually.
I went to C++ from PHP like you, but I was more interested in 3D games and such. Now I have moved on to C# and find it much more enjoyable than C++.
As for your specific areas of interest however, C++ is certainly an option but C# may be better.
Mobile programming with C++ is probably not a good idea. I know it's possible with NDKs and such but for a beginner it's probably not so good. For iPhone development, other than the official SDK, the next best option is the (commercial) MonoTouch framework from Novell. However, you may still need a mac to deploy (I don't know). In terms of Android, if you don't want to touch Java (don't blame you) I believe a C# framework (similar to MonoTouch) is in development and other languages may be available. Other platforms? No idea.
Small desktop apps is also very possible with C++. Assuming you're running Windows, you can use the Win32 API (pain) or the C++/CLI API (better). You could also use a different GUI framework like Qt, wxWidgets or GTK+ which are all also supported on other platforms. Again coming back to C#, GUI development using GTK# in MonoDevelop is so much fun. Having used WinForms in Visual C# Express back in my Windows days, I can say that I now enjoy the process whereas I didn't before.
Games are my main area of interest and the reason I originally picked up C++. Seeing as you've said small and desktop-based, using C++ for performance reasons is way overkill IMO. You could make a decent, fun, playable game in Python using pygame without the pain of using a language like C++. In C# (yes, I'm trying to sell it to you) you could create awesome games using the XNA framework from Microsoft or other frameworks like (my personal favorite) OpenTK.
Rich internet applications. C++ is probably not the right tool to use here. It's certainly possible but seeing as C++ has no standard networking library, you would have to figure some of this stuff out yourself. C# may not be the right tool either but it makes it a little easier. There are other options as well (like Python) but it's not something I know much about.
Despite what I've said about it, I still think C++ is a good language to learn. It teaches you about lower-level things you never think about in PHP land. If you want to learn it, the book that really helped me was "C++: A beginners guide" by Herbert Schildt and also "Programming" by Bjarne Stroustrup.
Yes, your use cases can all be done with C++, more or less (YMMV on mobile devices).
To some degree or another, a language like C# will be more rapid to develop in, however.
In my opinion, once you get away from the straight-up form design features and hack for a while in a language & application, language feature comparisons begin to diminish in meaningfulness.
I recommend C++ as a first "heavyweight" language; see here for my most recent discussion on it.
With RoR, Java, C#, PHP etc.. what do people use C++ for these days?
You're comparing apples to oranges. Languages such as PHP, Ruby, and Python are scripting languages. They a) are interpreted, and b) don't provide the kind of low-level memory access that C++ does, and thus aren't suitable for things that need to talk directly to hardware. Java and C# both run in a runtime environment on top of a particular platform and for the same reason aren't always the best choice. In all of these cases, things such as garbage collection can get in the way of speed and performance.
Languages are just tools; you choose the best tool for the task at hand. Just because higher-level languages make many tasks easier for a particular application domain doesn't mean that lower level languages don't have their place.
C++ is the preferred language when the user experience is more important than
development cost.
Performance. When Users time is valuable enough to spend some extra development hours.
Stability. Other languages may quick whip up something of descent quality.
But If you want it flawless, C++ is a better choise. As usual in c++ it is both
easier to get it totally wrong and totally right, depending on your skill and time available.
Ease of use. You can deliver a single binary that works everywhere. No need
for inexperienced end user to fiddle with installling runtimes and
interpreters, worring about VM versions and GC tweaking.
Users resources. Just because the user has 2gb of ram doesn't mean that she
wants our program to use all of it.
Usability. If you want specialized non-standard streamlined user interface.
Something that seems to have been overlooked so far are projects where there is already a substantial C or C++ code base. Most programming work is not going into creating brand new programs. If you are so blessed as to be creating something completely de novo, great, but that's not the common situation.
It's possible to mix languages, of course, so you can have the old C++ core program with additional code written in some other language. But, this is not easy, for a number of reasons:
There's the impedance mismatch between the languages themselves. Try to send a C++ std::multiset to Perl. It's kind of like an associative array, but not really. You end up using lowest-common-denominator data structures, avoiding anything that's specific to only one of the two languages. You then lose out on some of the features you were trying to gain by mixing languages.
You have to spend a lot of effort to define some kind of API between the two parts of the program. Most programs are not already architected to have such a layer. Refactoring and packaging the old core functionality to provide this is not easy, and it's ongoing work as the program's scope expands.
You either have to integrate the interpreter for the other language into the old C++ core, or you have to run it as a separate program and arrange for coordination between these two different programs. They must start up and shut down together, they have to maintain their IPC channels, etc.
Having overcome all the above, you will frequently find yourself needing to write code for both halves of the program. You will always have some delay while your brain makes a kind of mental context shift between the two languages. It never drops to 0 delay. This soaks up some of the superior productivity of the higher-level language. This is especially bad when working on a new feature in the high-level code that requires adding something to the old C++ core, so you're constantly bouncing between the two. It can be done, but it's a drag on productivity, the main claimed advantage from switching to some other language.
Two of the most common usage of C++ I would think are graphical interfaces and video games programming.
Almost everything on the desktop (except paint.net)
Everything on the server that RoR, php etc is running on top of (any language that can't write it's own compiler is probably written in C++)
Anything embedded smaller than an iPhone
Anything with a lot of computation - that isn't in Fortran ;-) Yes I know C# performance has improved, anybody got round to rewriting LAPACK, BLAS or NAG in it yet?
edit -
Is there a badge for most comments?
This is why SO doesn't work for discussions. Notice the order of comments change as they are voted. If you want to have childish arguements there is always reddit.
Anything where performance is a high priority. Garbage collection, HTML rendering, animation, games, intensive computation...
And from personal experience Computer-aided Design (CAD) plugins/addins are also C++, especially if you want to target multiple CAD systems (e.e Pro/Engineer, SoludWorks, CATIA, UG, AutoCAD etc).
Backends to projects. Many projects are written in multiple languages, where all the backend operations are written in C++ where APIs to other languages are provided.
The best project I can think of that does this is GNU Radio. Basically, how GNU Radio works is that all the DSP blocks (modulators, filters, etc) are written in C++. However, you make your radio using python, that is you connect the blocks together in python.
While other languages have come along. Many poeple who have used C++ in the past aren't just going to jump bandwagon with Java or C#. Linux all well and good in it's own right, but the majority of the computer Market still belongs to the Evil Empire. Java is NOT the dominant language there, no matter how much the religeous zelots claim it to be. Actually in small business apps, VB is king. I think I saw one figure giving it 58% of internal development for GUI front ends. C# is picking up momentum, but I suspect it primarily from the younger crowd who are less set in there ways. You can argue till your blue in the face virtues of a new language with someone who's been using a language for 15 years, and they just won't care. "Oh that's neat." and they turn back around and continue typing their C++.
Edit:
OS development, C maybe C++.
Tool & Langauge development, C maybe C++.
Industrial control, C, C++, Labview in somecases, FPGA development and NO trendy languages.
Embedded alot of C, some C++ and some assembly required.
(The IPhone is a general purpose palm computer, with phone capability. Not special
purpose computer designed for a singular purpose.)
PS3 C, C++ and some assembly required.
XBox360 Some C#, mostly C++ and some C and again some assembly required.
GPU Programming? It ain't PHP that's for DAMN sure.
Windows Programming C++, C#, and even some C still, VB.
Edit:
#Jeff L:
The Cult following that many these language have, I find irrational and distasteful. I start edging away from anyone who waxes poetic about ANY language, it's just mental. It's not a matter of opinion that professionally sold applications AREN'T written in Java for Window, it's fact. I'm sorry, but it's true. Maybe in the IT world it's useful, but not for shrink wrapped Windows software. I write embedded software, and the "feature" of not having pointers means that in order to do any practical work there or on OSs and device drivers requires hacks that violate the language it's self. There are cases where you have to "fly without a net" and the interpretive languages are designed SPECIFICALLY not to let you do that.
And not to be too argumentative with, but the heritage code base is a hard issue to get around. While we write new code in C and C++, I can't even get management PAY to upgrade old code written in Fortran or Ada to C or C++ forget Java that requires a whole new coding standard and butt loads procedures and documentation have to update, that cost even more. And unless the only software you write is GPL and freeware, who's paying for it is the primary concern. And in many cases "if it's isn't broke don't fix it" doesn't even apply, "if it's broke and no one bitching, we're not paying to fix" is managements choice.
Any project that needs direct hardware access, like drivers, operating systems
Any project where better performance is a competitive advantage, like games, simulations
Any project that needs a small footprint, like embedded systems
Check out the click modular router. Written completely in C++ (with some C where necessary)
A lot of micro ISVs are (enthusiastically) using C++ for almost anything you can think of.
It isn't maintained regularly, but here is a list of apps written using C++ Builder. I was pleasantly surprised to see WinRAR and Partition Magic.
I just interviewed with a company that has C++ programs using VS5.0 as they keep planning on phasing the C++ apps out, so updating is not needed. After 12 years you would expect that they would just upgrade their compiler.
If you want to use DirectX the you have to use C++ now, as MS dropped support for a Managed DirectX API.
As was mentioned, in the embedded world C++ or C is the primary languages.
If you work in a system that cannot crash, then you will may use C or C++ and just don't use new or malloc, but use arrays, so that you won't have any memory leaks, which can be a likely reason a long running process may run out of memory and crash.
If you are going to do a great deal of kernel level programming then C or C++ makes more sense as there will be some functions to call that will be incredibly difficult to call from C#, for example.
We do these projects in c++:
Simulation
Game
GIS tools
if you need performance, you should use c++...
STL/Boost cover all the low level stuff.
But what about the higher level concepts?
Windows: We have multiple windowing libs
KDE(Qt)
Gnome
Motif(C but written in OO style)
MS Windows
etc
But is anybody working on a unified standard for windowing?
Something that wrapped all the above would be acceptable. (even if it only accessed the common stuff it would be a starting point).
Networking:
There are a couple out there (including the Boost low level stuff).
But is there anybody working on a Service based network layer?
All the other stuff that Java/C# have in their standard libraries.
The stuff that makes it simpler for a beginner to jump in and say Wow done and it works everywhere (nearly).
Anyway. Here hoping there are some cool projects out there.
Edit
Maybe there is not one.
But if there are a couple that could be bundled together as a starting point (and potentially modified over time (where is that deprecated keyword)) into a nice consolidated whole.
Note: Windows is just a small part of what I am looking for. The Java/C# languages consolidate a lot more under the hood than just the GUI. What would be a good set of libraries to get all the functionality in one place.
There are too big differences between platforms to get a definitive C++ standard for GUI programming. I think Qt is about as close as you will get in the forseeable future. wxWidgets is another popular choise, but as I understand it, they are using less modern c++ features.
As for networking, I think you are being kind of vague. If you mean web services over HTTP, I would have a look at Pion.
Well it is almost 2010 and C++ almost has threads.
I'll probably get slammed for this but C++ moves too slow - to its own detriment and its user base. I readily acknowledge the difficulty of the technical and political issues involved but that's still the dirty reality of it. The language can't build in higher level concepts when it takes 5-10 years to agree on and implement the building blocks.
The reasons for this have endlessly debated but the sad truth is that C++ has relegated itself to a niche language. I like C++ but I look at the progress C#, Java, and even Python and Ruby have made over the last 5 years and I increasingly question whether C++ is worth the effort.
The Poco C++ project aims to deliver all that you ask, except for Windowing:
The POCO C++ Libraries aim to be for
network-centric, cross-platform C++
software development what Apple's
Cocoa is for Mac development, or Ruby
on Rails is for Web development — a
powerful, yet easy to use platform to
build your applications upon.
Qt might be the only framework complete enough to be what you suggest.
I guess there's some kind of keyword lookup driving the advertising here because I'm seeing a REALbasic ad, which is what I generally use for cross-platform GUI's nowadays.
I have spent a lot of time over the last 15 years working in C++ GUI's including retailing my own portability layer for CodeWarrior PowerPlant and working on the two Macintosh-based GUI code generators, including adding Windows generation to AppMaker. I've worked with wxWidgets, mainly wxPython. So, my opinion on difficulties in cross-platform GUI is fairly well-qualified :-)
Cross-platform GUI frameworks are hard to the point of nearly impossible without significant compromise - the issues come down to subtle matters of behavior which generally bother users at a level where some of them can't quantify but know that the application doesn't feel right. This is a lot harder to fix than just rendering native controls.
I started using REALbasic because their framework does a better job of getting the feel right than anything else I'd tried (I didn't get into Qt because of the expensive commercial license).
The reason it has taken so long for things to evolve is nothing to do with the C++ world moving slowly, it's just an intractable problem. The very best cross-platform Java apps do some stuff conditionally for OS/X and it is still screamingly obvious to an experienced user that they are not a native Mac app, although some are very usable and come pretty close to looking native - Oxygen XML editor and DeltaWalker are two of my favourites.
I don't think it is achievable to make a really comprehensive portable GUI library. Operating systems are just too different. Can you imagine a GUI library that would cover everything from iPhone to Windows 7 and wouldn't feel wierd on any of them?
A Boost gui library comes up occasionally.
The general opinion seems to be that the problems is too wide (are you targeting cellphones, FPS games or CAD workstations) and that it is too much work - Qt/wxWidgets has taken 10years.
see http://lists.boost.org/Archives/boost/2005/09/94453.php for a discussion.
It would have been nice because GUI usually means cross platform and threads, so all the GUI toolkits have invented their own cross platform,filesystem and thread classes. On the other hand if a standard GUI had been introduced in C++ it would probably look like TK !
What's so great about standardization ? Sure, if novice coders want to download one SDK to build portable apps, let them download Qt (or something similar) and forever remain within it's fine walled environment. But it'd be a tragedy if the C++ world revolved around that one library and boost and POCO and wxWidgets and clutter and blitz++ and eigen and and 101 other wonderful things (yes, gtkmm and ACE even) were stifled at birth because the gatekeepers of The Standard Library didn't see fit to admit them.
Diversity is good I think (although when dealing with it, it helps to have a good package manager; I've spent hours setting up build dependencies on Windows which just needed a few seconds of apt-getting on Debian).
ACE is great for concurrent communication and networking.
For cross platform windowing, there's wxWidgets. (formerly wxWindows).
Only everybody and his brother, but hardly any of them actually get anywhere.
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Will learning C++ help me build native applications with good speed? Will it help me as a programmer, and what are the other benefits?
The reason why I want to learn C++ is because I'm disappointed with the UI performances of applications built on top of JVM and .NET. They feel slow, and start slow too. Of course, a really bad programmer can create a slower and sluggish application using C++ too, but I'm not considering that case.
One of my favorite Windows utility application is Launchy. And in the Readme.pdf file, the author of the program wrote this:
0.6 This is the first C++ release. As I became frustrated with C#’s large
.NET framework requirements and users
lack of desire to install it, I
decided to switch back to the faster
language.
I totally agree with the author of Launchy about the .NET framework requirement or even a JRE requirement for desktop applications. Let alone the specific version of them. And some of the best and my favorite desktop applications don't need .NET or Java to run. They just run after installing. Are they mostly built using C++? Is C++ the only option for good and fast GUI based applications?
And, I'm also very interested in hearing the other benefits of learning C++.
yep, C++ is absolutely great. Check Qt. It has a great Python binding too, so you can easily prototype in Python, and when/if you need extra performance, porting to C++ is a mostly 1:1 translation.
But in fact, writing C++ isn't so hard either when you have a great platform, the worst part is writing all the class declarations :-)
If you want to build Windows applications that will run without frameworks such as .NET or virtual machines/interpreters, then your only really viable choices are going to be Visual Basic or C/C++
I've written some small Windows apps before in C++ code, and there is definitely a benefit in terms of speed and ease of deployment, at the expense of difficulty going up for development. C++ can be very fast, natively compiles, has many modern language features, and wide support. The trade off is that it's likely that you'll need to write more code in certain situations, or seek out libraries like Boost that provide the functionality you're after.
As a programmer, working in C++ and especially in C is good experience for helping you understand something just a tad closer to the machine than say, .NET, Java or a scripting language like VBScript, Python, Perl etc. It won't necessarily make you a better programmer, but if you are open to learning new lessons from it you may find that it helps you gain a new perspective on software. After all, most of the frameworks and systems you depend on are written in pure C, so it will never hurt you to understand the foundations. C++ is a different animal from straight C, but if you develop in C++ for Windows you'll likely find yourself working in a mix of C and C++ to work with Windows APIs, so it will have a trickle-down effect.
I wrote C++ windows apps for 10 years and switched to c# about 2 years ago to work on the latest product. I am embarrassed by how pathetic the C# app is. It takes 20 seconds to start up, you have to wait a second or so for it to switch between screens. I've used some third party GUI control library, and that leaks memory like a sieve! My app runs at 150 meg, and its doing hardly anything.
I am looking to go back to C++.
You can use MFC, it will be far quicker than .Net. Or, if you really want to burn, check out WTL - aLthough, there's not much documentation for that. I suggest you go with either MFC or Qt because you'll find plenty of good information and tutorials for them.
I can see that C# can be quicker to develop with, and maybe in some future version it will be quicker and smaller.
You will hate my answer:
The biggest bottlenecks in GUI development usually are not because of the language. After all most of the time in most applications the UI is idling, waiting for some user input. I can hear your screams already, but I said in most of the apps.
Let's put it this way: I am pretty sure that one can design a good UI on top of the .Net CLR. Learning C++ is a good thing, but will not solve the inherent problems of developing a good UI.
As always. It depends.
As long as you stay away from microsofts large Frameworks, as MFC, .net etc your applications can be blazing fast, but hard to code. Your benefit: You will really learn how windows is working behind its nice(?)surface. Just look into the initialisation code for COM-Objects and you know what I mean. You will never see such things in VB or C#
You have to program each button, each window and each control by yourself, sending silly window messages, however your applications are small, very small. This is an forgotten art:
Write small, fast programs
Good luck!
If you're committed to learning the raw, gritty details of Win32, then C++ will get you there. If you're not, then you'll end up using a bunch of wrappers anyway. For something like a small utility or especially something like a shell extension (where trying to use .NET will cause you problems anyway), C++ will let you write effective code with the absolute minimum in external dependencies. For a larger app, YMMV - a lot of the UI sluggishness out there comes from poor design: naive algorithms, an unwillingness to spin off non-trivial operations onto separate thread(s), reliance on badly-written 3rd-party components instead of custom controls... Mistakes easily made in any language.
Here is my honest answer to this.
First, I think every programmer should learn C/C++ just for the fact that by learning C++ you learn about programming. It is a systems-level language. You have to consider the finer details of memory management and so forth. I am shocked at how many programmers do not understand the foundational aspects of a programming language or computer system. By learning C/C++, you force yourself to understand programming at a more intimate level. On top of that, if you learn how to program in C/C++, you can program in almost anything.
That isn't to say C/C++ is always the right tool for the job. It can be a total pain to debug and take longer to write more meaningful code. However, it is perfect for those situations where you need absolute control of how a program executes.
This goes to say, I don't prefer C/C++ for UI programming. You still have to use a windowing framework specific to the OS you run on (MFC,Win32,Motif,GTK,QT,etc.). These frameworks don't lend themselves to easy learning curves. For at least Windows development, .NET is really the future of UI development (even though surprisingly MFC got a major overhaul for Vista that does stuff .NET doesn't even do yet). If you write your UI in .NET, it is easier to maintain and for others to maintain.
I typically write my UI in .NET and backend in C++.
Yes and no. It's all about optimization...And since C++ allows you to work on a lower level C++ is one of the best languages to write fast applications.
However those low-level mechanics implemented in C++ could be very annoying if you're used to more abstract approaches to OOP.
Testing your software in C++ is usually a long process.
If you are looking for speed anyway, C++ would definitely be one of the best choices.
C++ will indeed potentially get you a leaner, meaner and faster application (if you do it right).
However, the .NET framework is built for comfort from a developer point of view; a vast improvement over Win32 API or MFC, which may seem like hard work in comparison, So consider how you will implement the aspects for which your application depends on .NET (there are other frameworks available that may be easier than MFC or Win32 API), and also consider the costs and license issues of using such frameworks; for example the free VC++ Express Edition for example does not include MFC support.
If you know where you application is sluggish, C++/CLI may be a solution; allowing you to mix managed and native code to accelerate the parts that need it. However if it is the GUI that is intrinsically slow rather than the application processing; this may not be a useful path.