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We would like to create some simple automated tests that will be created and maintained by testers. Right now we have a tester who can code in any language, but in the future we might want any tester with a limited knowledge of programming to be able to add or modify the tests.
What is a good programming language for testers who are not great programmers, or programmers at all?
Someone suggested LUA, but I looked into LUA and it might be more complicated that another language would be.
Preferably, the language will be interpreted and not be compiled. Let me know what you think.
Update: C and C++ are under the hood. No one is aspiring to be a programmer really ... it just might be something they could potentially work on if they can handle the task.
Update 2: I am a software engineer who happens to be a tester right now. I am very knowledgeable about the entire lifecycle ... including developing code, so for me I could go with any language but I'm trying to think of other testers who aren't as knowledgeable about programming as I am.
Update 3: The language will need to be able to make calls to the C++ code easily.
You may not even need language depending on what you are testing you can use
Test Modeling tools like CubicTest: http://cubictest.seleniumhq.org/
Highly recommend you check that out if you are doing Web Applications.
Our QA team had great success with it.
Otherwise I would recommend a Domain Specific Language over a General Purpose Language in your problem domain. The DSL might actually be a subset of a GPL (for example Rake for Ruby) so google carefully.
If you can not find an existing DSL then:
Create a DSL for your testers using Ruby or Scheme. Those two languages are the
easiest to create Domain Specific languages.
Python If all else fails and they need a GPL than Python is by far the easiest language to learn IMHO.
EDIT - Based on your updated requirements, Python might be the best fit. I have found it very easy to call C or C++ with Python CTypes. However I am sure Ruby has something equally as good.
I always reccomend Python.
People always think i am crazy, but it is the easiest and most flexible to show people. And you could always design some type of "test" framework, and only expose them to a very small subset of it.
And you can always refer them to :
(source: barnesandnoble.com)
I think that before actually choosing a language, we should define even more precisely what you are looking for.
Garbage collected, as we don't want people to have to understand memory management!!
Good number of modules/libraries around, so as not to reinvent the wheel
Preferably coming up with already existing (and tested) unit-test frameworks
Good documentation for the modules/libraries
Preferably scripting language, because tests have to be modified/run quickly
Easy interaction with C/C++, though the developers will have to provide the interface
And, perhaps most important of all:
clear and "english-like" syntax, so that it will be (at least) readable by non-tech people
Based on this list, I would recommend Python.
It's perhaps the programming language (having reached a critical mass) that is the closest to traditional english / algorithm expressions. It's certainly one of those with the least punctuation / weird symbols that throw off non-programmers
It comes immediately with so much modules that it's unlikely you'll have to dig for more any time soon... comprising a unittest module
The documentation is really good, generally illustrated by examples
It is quite simple to interface it with C
You can even run Python scripts from Java using JPython ;)
We have a in-house software for our non-regression tests. While it's been programmed in Java (probably for the GUI part and the Windows/Unix portability requirement), Python has been elected as the language to use within the non-regression tests themselves.
This is used mostly by our QA people, and even beginners usually take to it pretty easily, even when they don't have any programming background at all.
Note: I don't have any practical experience with LUA, so I am unable to choose between Python or LUA. However, having use both Python and Ruby, I must say that I have found Python much more readable (loop constructs / punctuation). Just make sure not to pick up Perl ;)
Depends a bit on what you want, but for my money Ruby is probably the most comprehensible language around.
Also if you're working with web stuff, then Watir gives you a lot of testing functionality right there.
If your ambition is at all to become a programmer, I'd suggest using the language of the system you're testing.
The experience will make you a better programmer, and the knowledge can only make you a better tester.
Python is a very simple and useful language to understand. Some even compare it to writing pseudocode. It also comes with its own unit testing framework.
EDIT: It also comes with a C API.
I think the better question might be what do you plan on doing with the programs created. I have done Java, html, css, php, mysql, vb, C#, etc, etc. Out of all of them, the fundementals remain the same. You always have the same type of logic from language to language. IF ELSE statements, for loops etc. However if your not planning on creating self loading programs then you would go for something that wouldn't do that.
Persoanlly Java is difficult but allows for a lot of portability. Don't just go with what's easiest, because you might not be able to do anything with it in the future.
EDIT *
if you are still interested, java has the ability to make calls to C++, but not without it's share of problems. Link this link has a look at making calls, but might be a little too involved if you're only hoping to show introductory programming.
Ok, as I understand the question it is really, how can I let non-programmer's write automated tests for an app written in c++? So in this context I would suggest taking a look at Fit and FitNesse.
Fit is essentially a table based F ramework for I ntegration T esting. The idea is that you hook fixtures up into the code to test and those fixtures are then controlled in different ways using nothing more than tables or in the case of FitNesse simple wiki markup which creates the tables under the hood.
The advantage of this is that there is no programming language involved at all. They just need to know what fixtures you have exposed and the proper usage for them.
The drawback of this is that it can be difficult at first to map out the fixtures you need/want for your tests. Also, it is generally more maintenance than using like a unit test framework where the tests are all just in code.
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After a while surfing on source code of big projects especially application servers like this, I have understand these projects are not developing by one language. Many of them are using python for secondary language.
Now I have four questions:
Why is used more than one language?
Why python is used for secondary often?
Why python is not used to develop all parts of projects and they still is using c/c++?
And which the parts of projects should be developed with python and which part of projects is using c/c++?
Hard and soft layers
Programming language designs tend to trade off between "high-level" features, which enhance programmer productivity at the cost of speed, and "low-level" features, which require a great deal of programmer effort but produce very fast code.
Therefore it sometimes makes sense to use two languages on a project:
Write 90% of the code in an expressive, high level language which is easy to write and maintain.
Write the 10% of performance-critical code in a low-level language which is harder to write, but allows for comprehensive optimisation.
c2wiki calls this the HardAndSoftLayers pattern:
By virtue of the first rule of optimization, go ahead and write most of your code in the highest level language you can find.
By virtue of the third rule of optimization, when you must, use a profiler and find the slow parts of your program. Take those parts, and write them in a lower-level language.
For reference, the rules of optimisation are:
First Rule Of Optimization - Don't.
Second Rule Of Optimization - Don't... yet.
Profile Before Optimizing
The rule is pretty simple: the developers choose the language(s) based more or less on the following criterias:
their familiarity with it
how easily you can do the task using that language
how well is suited the language to the specific task
Today most of the development done in this multilingual environments are huge solutions, where different components need to communicate, exchange data or simply do work which is comprised of more than one step. It is easier to write the communication/data interpretation/whatever wrapping necessary part in a language such as python and then leave the real time and speed needy work to be done by some lower level language which compiles directly without the need for an interpreter.
Let's dig a little bit deeper.
How familiar are the developers with the programming language depends on the background of each developer. If they are given a free choice, obviously they will pick the language they know the best, unless there is a lobby from someone else... usually higher in the management chain. Python is not necessarily the language of choice, python is simply an easy to use and learn language, which is well suited for most tasks. Our project has no bit of python in it, only tons of ruby code. Because the main developer liked ruby at that time, so we're stuck with it.
If you know more than one programming language you know that each of them is doing the same thing differently. For example, creating a socket, connecting to a server, reading the stuff and printing it out is just a few lines of Erlang code, but it takes a lot more to do it in C++ (for example...) So again, if you have a task you know how to solve easily in a specific language you are going to stuck to it. People are lazy, they don't necessarily learn new stuff unless needed.
Obviously you are not going to write a device driver in python, and it is much easier to create a complete web service with java than with plain C... but you still would need the part of the solution that does the hardware close thing. When you have a task you carefully measure the requirements and implications and wisely choose the language you will do it in. Because it will stuck to it forever.
Sometimes python is not good enough.
Dealing with computer vision, image or sound processing, calculate tones of data is not really what python is good at. Other language like C or C++ is really good at those fields.
support your primary language is java, and you want to glue other languages into one project. That where we need Python. Python is well known glue language. you can use ctype,SWIG, Jython, ironPython or other method to bind multiple language.
Guess I answered this question at 1.
Need for speed. go for C or C++ . Care more about productivity, go with Python.
Without referring to the project you sent, I'll give you my 50c for why the company I work for, as to why we use python quite often in our projects.
Primarily, we have no python code relating to the software solution itself. All python code either relates to assist with development, machine set up, common framework tools deployment for testing, and vastly for code generation.
Why is used more than one language?
No project we work on has only one language, when looking at all our enterprise level solutions or large scale implementations.
This is mostly due to the fact that our tiers are written in languages that provide best performance and usability at each level separately.
For instance, C++ for speedy core back-end services, and C#.NET for rapidly developed and provide good UI for the front-end.
Why python is used for secondary often?
Personally, apart for the reasons I explained above, we don't make use of python 'secondary often'. We use C++/C# as the most common pair, but depending on the platform, might be other pairs.
Why python is not used to develop all parts of projects and they still is using c/c++?
Python is great for quick solutions and doing things you wish your shell could do. This largely involves file management, etc.
C++ is perhaps the fastest compiled language, providing optimal usage for core and largely used actions.
Based on that, and the fact that the market has more knowledge and experience in C++ (for many reasons), C++ is the more popular choice.
And which the parts of projects should be developed with python and which part of projects is using c/c++?
I believe I may have already addressed that above.
-
I hope I could help, please remember this is only my personal opinion and by no means should this be taken as a fact.
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I am learning Clojure and I really am loving some of its features. The time is coming to think of some real "pet projects" and I realize I'm not sure how to actually use Clojure.
I see many web and templating frameworks (e.g. Compojure), but somehow I'm in doubt on whether it's worth it. I feel that in the long run it can't serve the needs of real world applications which you address with Spring, Hibernate and some pieces of the Java EE stack.
On the other hand, I see great potential in the concurrency features but I'm short on ideas on how to really use them.
Enough background, my questions are:
What are the feasible applications of Clojure and functional programming? What idea for a pet project can you suggest which wouldn't be rewriting the stuff I did with OO/Java EE into different syntax? I'm looking for something what really exploits Clojure's potential and leads to a solution which feels a lot better (not just in syntax) than OO/structural programming.
Is it common, or at least reasonable, to mix Clojure and Java? I mean either of using Clojure for tiny libraries in 95% Java projects, or building Java apps on top of the core written in Clojure.
Edit: Thanks for all the great answers. They're all really inspiring. So if you have anything else to add, go ahead and don't be put off by the fact that one has been accepted.
In answer to the "background" part of the question:
I think you should read Jörg W. Mittag's answer to an SO question entitled "Real world Haskell programming". He makes a number of excellent points. Read on for my take on the FP in the real world issue; scroll past the horizontal line for answers to the two actual questions.
There's a number of FP-centric companies which seem to be really good at what they're doing; for some examples, google Jane Street (OCaml), Galois (Haskell), FlightCaster (Clojure for backend heavy lifting; I seem to remember reading that their frontend is currently done in Rails). Supposedly automated trading strategies are often coded in FP-oriented languages; that would indeed make perfect sense, although I have no inside data to confirm this. For additional examples to do with Clojure, see the list of companies on the success stories page.
Some people seem to be enjoying a degree of success in addressing the needs of real world applications in Rails, Django etc. It would appear that they feel no need to touch J2EE & friends. Not that these have much to do with FP, but they are like FP in that they're nothing like the "Enterprise Languages" of the present.
As for the two actual questions:
Why not just pick up whatever it is you've last been thinking to do and do it in Clojure? Obviously anything can be done in Java (and most things probably have been), but a leaner language might make the product cleaner, the experience more pleasant and less time consuming etc.
About mixing Clojure and Java -- I've seen a decent amount of Clojure code using a couple of classes coded directly in Java (for whatever reason). I've tried going the other way around myself and it's a bit of a pain in that it's much simpler to work with interface inheritance than class inheritance in Clojure, unexpected coupling in the Java code can seriously interfere with the ability of the Clojure code to do things in the most natural way etc. Still, it's entirely possible to extend a Java programme in Clojure and it seems like a particularly safe & sane way of experimenting with it for the worried Java developer.
Functional programming can be applied to almost any task. Web applications, scientific applications, games, you name it.
It is very common to mix Clojure and Java, since Clojure does not have many dedicated libraries for things like I/O or networking.
Organizations that already have a lot of Java code can use Clojure for small subsections of their Java projects.
For new projects, it is usually more effective to use Clojure as the high-level driver language, calling Java libraries where necessary.
I have been working on a small web application using Clojure, and while there is nothing special about the application that could not have been done in a different language, the experience of writing it has been completely different. I have written web apps using ASP.net and moving to Clojure was less about learning the different syntax and more about learning a different way to think and program. Having to learn a different way to think will occur regardless of the project you choose to work on, so I would worry less about finding the perfect functional project and more about finding something you just want to work on.
I think the answer to this has a great deal to do with the context your project is embedded in, and the constraints that imposes on you. Absent social factors I think Clojure is likely at least as "good" a language as Java is for any problem, with the possible exception of cases where you need the last bit of performance. And even in those cases things are not nearly as simple as they seem. For one thing some future version of Clojure can probably, in the theoretical limit, be compiled to bytecode that is as "fast" as what Java is compiled into (assuming a bit more work from the programmer at bottlenecks.) More importantly, optimization is a multi-factorial problem, and one in which programmer productivity and the flexibility of code factors heavily. So while there is a sense in which it would be accurate to say that Clojure is slower than Java, that sense might not be the important one when discussing the performance of a particular application.
So I'd say that if you disregard social factors Clojure's use cases are close to a superset of Java's. I wouldn't try to write a Linux kernel module in clojure though...
Of course, it's true that not all problems have equally natural solutions in functional languages. But people have come up with some interesting ways of dealing with some of the cases where FP seems to map badly to the domain, and anyway Clojure actually offers you enough escape hatches from pure FP that if you really feel the need to write part of your program in an imperative style you can (though of course you give up some of the benefits of Clojure in that case.) In the worst case you could use Clojure to drive the Java library in much the same way that you would in Java... it's hard to imagine a case where that would be a good idea, but in most cases that would not be markedly inferior to just using Java, and in many it might be better.
I'm still a neophyte at Clojure, though I've been programming in CL and scheme for a long time, and I spent about five years writing Java for a living. But I would probably prefer Clojure to Java for just about anything even without knowing it quite as well, as long as there were no social factors involved.
It would be a mistake to dismiss social factors though. I've been a Lisp programmer long enough to have a finely honed instinct for how well a Lisp will work in a given context. I've introduced Lisp to commercial settings where it has been a big win, and I've introduced it to settings where it really wasn't. I'd think long and hard about staking your career on successfully transitioning a team of programmers to any Lisp, Clojure included, particularly if they are not too keen on the idea.
Just to give you an idea of what I think Clojure might be useful for, I am currently writing a lot of poker-related code in Clojure. Some of it is pretty simple stuff (finding the best five card hand you can make from seven cards) and some of it is a bit more interesting (looking at someone's playing history and extracting meaningful trends from it using a few heuristics and some basic statistics.) None of it requires much in the way of Clojure's sophisticated concurrency mechanisms, but it is still much nicer (for me at least) in Clojure than it would be in, say, Java.
There are certainly some other cases that someone might describe where Clojure wins big because of its sophisticated mechanisms for managing concurrency, etc. I am aiming at something more modest- I am just pointing out that even if you don't need those mechanisms you might find Clojure a very congenial language for general purpose programming, albeit one that requires you to rethink how you abstract things if you're coming from an imperative/OO background. And hey, if you need the concurrency mechanisms (as you might, the way things are going), at least you already know Clojure.
I like writing game programs when I learn a new language.
I am in the process of learning Clojure and started writing a Spider solitaire player. If you have never played Spider, don't start; it is very additive :-). See http://www.spidersolitaire.org/.
In writing this game, I am getting to use several things that I want to learn: functional programming, concurrency, Java-interop (for Swing), etc.
I have also started writing a Bejeweled player (http://www.popcap.com/games/free/bejeweled2), but have run into a problem finding the definitive rules for scoring the game.
I am currently deciding on an alternative JVM language to port an existing Swing desktop application written in Java 6. Given that JavaFX specifically targets this kind of application, it would seem that my best option is JavaFX Script.
However, what about other kinds of applications and libraries? Would JavaFX Script be the best choice in general for a second JVM language?
Currently, it seems that Scala is the most talked about alternative to the Java language. This month (October 2009), it is at position 34 in the TIOBE index, while JavaFX Script is at position 44, and Clojure, Fan, and Groovy are at positions below 50.
So, what are your impressions? Which language would you invest your time in learning and using (and why), assuming you can freely choose the language for a given project to run in the JVM?
My main question would be: why are you porting an existing application? The answer to this question may give you some idea of where you want to go.
Some quick perspectives on the main choices:
Scala is in my view, a better Java than Java. If you want a language that takes the best bits of Java buts adds a lot of new innovations and features, then it may well be for you.
Clojure is an amazingly well designed language, particularly if you believe in a future of highly complex, concurrent applications. It's also extremely productive - I can probably create more value/hour in Clojure than any other language. However, unless you already know Lisp it will seem very unfamiliar at first. If you are willing to live on the cutting edge to get these benefits, Clojure may well be for you.
JavaFX script - has some very nice features for GUI design, and clearly has support of Sun/Oracle. On the other hand, I don't see it having massive traction outside this domain. I'd suggest giving it a trail run to see if it meets you needs.
Java - should still be on your list! If the reason you are porting is because the code has become difficult to maintain, then maybe a focused phase of re-factoring while staying on Java can get you the benefits you want. It's possible to write perfectly good GUI applications in Java.
Groovy - really nice scripting language on the JVM. Particularly good if you want to embed scripting features within an existing Java/JVM application. Not sure I'd choose it for (re)writing a complete application however.
JRuby / Jython - haven't seen these much myself but heard good things. Probably most suitable if you have Ruby / Python skills in the team but also want the benefits of the JVM platform.
The best alternate language, and the best language overall, IMO, is that which best allows you to write the program in the best model for you.
So, if you are writing a GUI app, then Scala may be the incorrect choice, as you wouldn't be moving away from Swing.
If JavaFX best meets your needs, then use that language.
If you know LISP then Clojure would be a good choice, but, like Scala, not for this problem, it sounds like.
If you don't know lisp and you want/need a functional programming language, then Scala would be the best choice.
Basically, there is no one language that is best in all situations, it helps to know what you want to do, and the strengths/weaknesses of the various options.
Those all sound like good choices. You could add JRuby to the list...
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I have worked for the last 10 years in Networking & Web Development and always had an interest in programming. When I was in School I started in Basic, (To date myself) the other languages at that time were Cobol & Fortran, Where should I start in 2009? is C+ or C++ a good place? Is it better to Start Java or .net? I'm in need of some direction from Coders, Programmers, developers who can point me in the right direction. The technology changes in the blink of an eye, I'd like a good starting point to begin learning & understanding relevant code.
I think your best bet is to learn Python because
It is simple and easy language to learn
Python is capable of doing what any other main stream language can do
Python is also a very good choice for web development, with good frameworks like Django, Pylons, Turbogears etc
Google uses Python and using google appengine you could be able to quickly write web applications.
Python is also great for cross-platform desktop applications using wxPython, PyQT, Tkinter,gtk etc
Python has very rich set of libraries and frameworks e.g. PIL for imaging, numpy for computing, twisted for networking etc etc etc
Python has implementation in Java and .NET so you can program for those platforms in Python
I agree with most of the posts on here but I would like to add my own slant on this. Learning a programming language should change the way you think about programming and allow you to make useful programs. The list below is a mix of easy to learn (the basics) and helps you think about programming problems
Python it makes programming fun and easy. You will learn a lot about programming and make some cool programs in a relatively small amount of code. Will help you think about programs at a higher level than C which is a good thing.
C it's the basis of a massive number of languages and will teach you a good deal of stuff that is now considered low level. Stuff that will be useful for any programmer to know.
Haskell its a functional language which will have you thinking about programming from a different perspective. It is very useful to know this stuff - can help reduce many bugs.
I would start by gaining a basic knowledge. i.e. be able to make a text based Connect 4 game in each of these three languages (in order). Which books help you do that is largely personal preference.
Programming is not only about the code and the language. It's about everything you do at the computer read The Pragmatic Programmer and Code Complete 2. Extra points for SICP and Hacker's Delight
From there if you want to know more about how programming languages work by writing a interpreter for Scheme (by reading SICP again) And/or look at FORTH. Or learn more about how to program by writing more and more programs. Once you get basic knowledge write, then re-write as many different computer programs as you can.
It all depends on your focus.
If you're looking at getting into straight development, I would recommend C#, Java or C++. (C++ is a learning curve though, and would be great to "learn", whereas C# and Java will get you started a lot quicker in doing "cool" things)
If you're looking at Web Development, look into PHP (as it's free to setup and run with) or ASP.NET (which will link to platform at a point, as you use C# or VB.NET syntax).
If you're looking at something different, have a look at ERLANG or Prolog, or those types, however I don't recommend it for a start, as it's not AS quick to get results that you might be looking for.
You'll get a dozen different people all pushing you to learn their favourite language.
When it comes down to it though it doesn't make a lot of difference. As long as you pick something that is modern and object oriented you should be fine.
Assuming you are talking about programming and not web development, any of the following would be a perfectly acceptable first language:
C#
Java
Python
C++
Ruby
VB.net (not VB6)
There are advantages and disadvantages to each; there probably aren't as many jobs in Python and Ruby, C++ is harder for a beginner, but it's stuff you need to know eventually, C#/Java hide you from that hard stuff to begin with, but like I said you'll need to learn it eventually. VB.net is derived from BASIC syntax so you might feel at home to begin with, but a lot of programmers prefer C style syntax.
If you have a specific focus in mind, then that might dictate some choices over others, but if you are just out to learn programming, then any will do. If you are ever planning on being a good programmer you will naturally learn several.
Well, technically, technology doesn't change in the blink of an eye. For instance:
Lisp: Came out in 1958. It's always had a cult following in various fields, but it's becoming more hip now with the clojure variant.
C: Came out in 1972. Obviously influences C++, Java, JavaScript (as does lisp), and still has a strong following.
Smalltalk: Came out in the 70's. Now it's hip via the ruby language.
I'm not suggesting you learn these, just that if you had learned them in the past, you'd still have relevant skills. Many of the modern languages actually take aspects from past languages. JavaScript, for instance, is a scripting language with object oriented aspects (Smalltalk, C++), functional aspects (lisp), and the syntax of C.
Learn what you're interested in, and find out what will help you accomplish your goals . But learn one and you can learn many.
The question is what you want to achieve in learning a programming language.
Do you want to get used to the basics? Then you might want to try a scripting language like Ruby or PHP. I would recommend Ruby as it's really easy to learn and advance (e.g. with IRB).
Want to write "fat" (desktop) applications? Then you should stick to C++, Java or C#.
For web applications you should use Ruby on Rails, Django (Python) or a similar web framework for the language of your choice. So you should already know a bit of the language.
C
Because it's not difficult to learn. TO LEARN, not to do "cool things".
Because is the languague that any good programmer SHOULD KNOW at least if he wants to know what's happening in the machine.
When you've learned C, then you should go to OOP: I would recommend C++ or Java, but there are a lot of OPP languages (C#, .Net), so you can choose.
Java, C++ may change a lot, but not C. So, first learn C.
Furthermore, if you want to do some Web Development, the step C -> PHP is trivial, really.
PD: C is not my favourite language, but I know that if you learn C, you will be able to learn any language you want in very few time.
Nobody can really tell you which language you should learn. Just try a few of them and then decide for yourself. Just take the one that you like the most.
Of course I wouldn't start learning a language that's already "dead", but every modern language is good for something. What you should actually do is to decide in which area of programming you want to code - so, for example, would you like to develop desktop or web applications, should the program run on any platform or are you fine with just windows or just linux or whatever. When you have decided on that, take a look at the languages that are commonly used for the area you choose and try all/many of them. Then take the language you like the most.
Read and do the assignments in The C Programming Language before anything else. It will really help you get a solid grip on fundamentals and some of the trickier issues like memory management. Then go on to OOP whether it be Java, .NET, C++ or Python.
If you start in C you'll have a tougher time starting out but will learn a lot more by the time you understand the language as compared to starting with another language. C won't teach you Object-Oriented Programming though, so after C it would be easy to move to C++ and learn the differences and then about Objects. A good book to learn C from is The C Programming Language.
Or you could go a route where you start off easier so things aren't so frustrating to start, learn a bit less, and then slowly pick up more and more about programming. You could start with Python and understand the basics of programming very quickly, and then start expanding what you know by learning other languages.
I personally started with C++, which then made a lot of other higher level languages, like Python, super easy to learn. If you want to start out learning more of the basics of programming I would probably recommend C++ first as it is a bit easier than C, and then you can learn C afterwards and it will be a bit easier, and then it'll be super easy to pick up something like Python, Java, Ruby, etc.
I think choosing a language or technology is overrated, especially when you have to learn fundamental things like object orientation or algorithms. Try to focus on the basics first and especially try to use more than one language.
In order to understand the concepts you should at least learn a dynamic language (Ruby, Python, PHP) and a "traditional" one (I would recommend either Java or C#). Functional languages are all at rage now and provide a different view onto programming than the latter two approaches.
New technologies are always nice to know, but in the end a good set of fundamental knowledge will empower you to learn them faster than they disappear.
I would say there is a massive difference between a Programming language & a Programming Language + Framework(s), usually when people say Learn Language X they are probably thinking about the Framework(s).
So if you want to actually Learn to program, try to learn the language with as little framework 'baggage' as possible, perhaps C?
Once you have gained enough working knowledge of a programming language (eg variables, loops, conditions) then move onto more broader subjects like OOP, then start looking at functional style etc.
From personnel experience I would say try and learn as many programming languages as possible (it actually gets easier the more you learn) but you will never master them all, just have enough to get by.
You will then realise that the language is the easy part, the framework and related methodology is what your actually learning when going from one language to another.
Much as I love Delphi, I think I would suggest either Java or Python. Why? Assuming you are learning on your own, I think these languages have the clearest texts and web sites for learning on your own (esp. Java).
Seeing that you're coming from two different fields (networking and web development) you can either work your way top down or bottom up in terms of high- or low level languages. If you think you want to make use of your networking knowledge (which I assume is pretty close to hardware), you might want to start with something like C, maybe Unix network programming. If you want to build on your web developer skills, you might want to try something more high level. I think Python is a good suggestion, but also Java - maybe in combination with JSP. C# would be a good choice too in my eyes.
Don't forget about platform. Are you most interested in web, mobile, or desktop development? As for languages, there are a ton out there and you'll never be able to learn them all. So I think you should determine what your goal is and whether you plan to program for fun, profit, or both. But most important of all, be sure the journey is fun for you and that you're building stuff you love.
A good reason to learn Java - besides the fact it's currently the most popular language - is that the Java Trails tutorials are really good, and really far-reaching.
C# is very, very similar to Java in most regards; also interesting to learn, and it's gaining marketshare while Java slows down.
Other than those two, I'd also strongly consider Python, for being easy to learn and very, very useful personally and professionally.
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I`m currently studying C++ and want to learn another language.
For work I use C# + ASP (just started learning it, actually), but I want something "less Microsoft" and powerful.
I have heard Python is a popular and powerful language, not so complicated as C++. But many people mentioned it was hard for them to get back to C++/Java from Python because they started thinking in it, get used to absence of memory management, etc.
What do you recommend?
There's no right or wrong answer, really. But I think you'll benefit more from learning Python. Given the similarities between C# and C++, you'll learn a different way of thinking from Python. The more ways you learn to think about a problem, the better it makes you as a programmer, regardless of the language.
The benefit of going from a more static language to a dynamic language is to change your programming paradigm -- it's not a matter of becoming "lazy" so much as realizing new ways of accomplishing things, which will make you better in any language.
Well, I've learnt Python after C/C++, Java and C#. Python is a great language, and its simplicity and consistency have improved the way I code. It has also helped me think more clearly about the algorithms underlying my code. I could go on about the benifits it brought me, instead I'll summarize the reason to learn it ->
Learning a new lanuage doesn't take away, it adds to your programming skill and keeps you sharp by teaching you to shift between the frames of mind that each language requires.
So go out there and learn Python. Your code will improve(TM).
P.S.
1.You'll lose C++ (or any other language) skills, if you neglect their upkeep and maintainance. Thats entirely up to you.
2.Programmer (intelligent) laziness is a virtue.
Many would argue that you would benefit from learning Python before C++.
The syntax hurdles are much, much lower;
Debugging is much more friendly
There are a plethora of libraries---batteries included, you know. It's easy to
experiment with web scraping, XML, etc. in Python. Again, the barriers to entry
in C++ are much higher.
It's still good to learn C/C++, because of its close connection to the machine. But a new programmer can learn an awful lot from exploring in Python.
I don't think that "Python makes you lazy" (nice title, anyway!).
On the contrary, in programming as in life, knowing more than one language is important; I think you'll find python amusing and sufficiently different from C++ or C# so that the languages will not get mixed in your head...
Python is complementary to C++ and easy to integrate with C++. (As evidence of this claim, the C++ gurus from Boost use Python.)
And as you said, Python gives you a way to get a perspective outside the Microsoft orbit. But even there, if you need to integrate Python with MS tools, there's IronPython.
Learning more languages can only make you a better developer, regardless of their approach. Besides, your experience with C++ (or, at least C) will come in handy for writing high-performance parts of your applications using Python's C API, which lets "raw" C and C++ code intermingle nicely with the pure Python stuff.
I still write code in Objective-C (1.0... before memory management) and Python on a daily basis. The variety is actually fun, rather than confusing; keeps things from being boring.
Flex your brain and improve your skill set. Give a functional language a whirl.
I learned C/C++, Java, Python & C# in that order.
The two I actually invariably end up using are C++ & Python; I find the niche Java & C# occupy between them to be too narrow to feel the need to use them much (at least for the stuff I do).
I also think I didn't really "get" C++ functors and boost::bind until I'd been exposed to Python.
Many languages are quite similar to others, but to move between imperitave and functional / dynamic and static / Object and Procedural languages you do need to train yourself to think within the constraints of the language you are using. Since most projects are at least a few weeks, this is generally not a problem after the first few days.
You will find it more difficult to switch away from a language+environment you enjoy in your after-hours / hobby development.
C, Macro Assembler => basically the same - difference is mainly libraries
C++, Java, C#, Delphi => basically the same paradigm - you learn quickly how to leverage the features of the specific language and adopt concepts from one syntax to another. It's basically the same way of thinking, the biggest exception is how you think of memory manangement.
Python - good language, strategically a better choice than ruby, although there are other aspects of ruby that can be argued to be superior. What make python a good choice is the presence of a formal language body which keeps python environments on different platforms very compatible to one another.
If you are interested, read this http://cmdematos.com/?p=120 on making a strategic language choice.
It is up to what exactly is the kind of applications you want to program, for example for Websites that need access to databases I would go for Ruby( and Ruby on Rails framework ) , for financial applications or applications that need a lot of parallel processing I would go for a funcional programming language like Haskell, oCaml or the new F#, these last 3 wil make you a better programer even if you don't programm a lot in them , by the way c# has been lately in the latest versions adding more and more funcional programming features. I would learn Python for a security and exploits kinds of applications.
You could learn a new programming language, like python, and use it to do all the tasks you'd normally perform in your 'core' languages; or you could take a language (like python, or perl) and use it to complement your core language.
You could learn VBScript and use it to write scripts that glue your code and others together. If you want something less Microsoft, then python, perl or bash scripting would be a good idea - not just to learn how to code in the new, but also how to do things differently from the usual 'code an app' way.
From a utility perspective, it is good to learn one of the more dynamic languages like Python (or Ruby or Perl) too. Not only do they stretch your mind, but they are superior for certain kinds of tasks. If you want to manipulate text, for example, C++ is a lot harder to use than Python. It gives you another arrow in your quiver to use when appropriate.
I learned, in order:
BASIC
Pascal
Ada
(A little bit of Haskell)
Java
Python
C++
C#
I don't feel Python inhibited my ability to learn or use C++. I am glad though that I learned pointers in Pascal before encountering reference types in Java, Python and C#, because I feel it gave me a good basis to understand the idea of the differences between "value types" and "reference types". I think for me the most important of those languages are Python, Haskell and C++. All of them complement each other, and although there are times I'm working in one and wish I had a feature from another, on the whole I think I benefit greatly from a deeper understanding of things like type systems, object orientation and metaprogramming by seeing the different ways these languages approach these things.
Try LISP instead (or afterwards, it's your call). You are at least partially right, though. using Python for a while makes you not want to go back to a statically typed and compiled language. It's just sooo much more comfortable not to have to please the compiler like ALL THE TIME ;). And yet another aspect is the readability of python code, which is awesome.
It is true. After learning python, everything else will seem like too much effort for the same amount of real work being done. You'll get used to the clean, small syntax and the freedom of GC. You will enjoy working in list comps, generators, etc. You'll start to think in python and C++ and Java will be like building a ship in a bottle one twiggy little stick at a time.
But since it's that much easier, doesn't it tempt you to try it all the more?
I think it is always good to know several programming languages. I've learned c++ at school and I've used it a lot in the past years because it is really a standard in the industry. I've learned python by my own and I am using it to make a lot of nice tools that would be too long to write in c++.
Python has just a very positive influence on my c++ skills. It gives another way to think.