Related
I'm getting a little tired of building web applications. Feels like same thing over and over again. Are there any other cool things you can do. I'm maybe getting to start coding in C++.
Any suggestions for tips in that area? Should I delve into Qt or MFC? Any suggestions?
My latest interest is in Robotics. You can get a microcontroller for about $30 (arduino.cc) - and miscellaneous motors off of E-bay. I also have some cheap rangefinders and a GPS receiver - each of them under $30...
I build web apps as well. I'm not really tired of it, but I spend all my spare time programming in C.
If you're just starting out in C++, I recommend starting with some simple console-based applications first. Get used to the syntax and some fundamentals like strong typing, pointers, and understanding the difference between pointers and references. (Depending on your experience as a developer, you may already know all or most of the theory behind these concepts.)
If you're comfortable with these things, building GUI applications is easier (although still far from trivial.) I'd recommend going with a toolkit like Qt rather than MFC, which is largely deprecated in favor of dot NET, if I'm not mistaken.
Edit: also, consider trying out a language like C# instead. C# is newer, a little more cohesive, and lets you use dot NET for building Windows GUI applications.
Write a game. An action game. Like, a shoot-them up for example.
You'll discover the other face of programming. Use whatever you want to make it. C++ is a good choice, but any language will be good. C++ will be harder to "master" than other languages but learning it will make you understand a lot about other languages. But that's your choice : the project domain is more important than the language (that is just the tool).
Just try to make a game, I think it will really be different and you'll discover a lot of interesting things. I recommand a shoot them up because it's visual, make you learn basic graphic rendering, basic collision management and is a good base for a potentially interesting game (if you add a feature that makes it stand appart) that will keep your motivations for learning.
Look into mobile application development like on Android or iphone. C/C++ will come in handy.
C++ is great and all, but writing GUIs in MFC is just stupidly painfully compared to any other reasonable framework out there, like .NET (VB, C#, C++/CLI, pick your language) or Cocoa/Obj-C on the Mac OS X / iPhone OS. Qt is probably better than MFC.
Buy "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and Ritchie and work through it.
Ideally, you also have access to an OSX/Linux system and can work on that. (C and Unix go hand in hand).
If you're used to working in relatively high-level languages such as C# or PHP, going back to something like C++ where you need to do your own memory allocation and other low-level stuff will probably seem cumbersome. Personally, I was happier making the switch in the other direction, and having much more done for me.
But if you do want a challenge, C++ could be a good option. Or, go straight to embedded. Robotics is a very fun topic, try to fit interesting things (that really move!) inside the 2-KB RAM environment of a PIC microcontroller :-)
I would recommend trying to implement something useful in C/C++. Is these a utility in your operating system you don't like? That you think you could improve? Have you always wanted to do X easily and have a good idea? No matter how big it might seem, research it. Learning an OSes API will teach you a lot about C/C++. Add a user interface in the library of your choice to learn even more. Basically, push the envelope a bit - building a calculator is great or a little console app for learning a few things, but building a fully fledged app with a purpose will really teach you things.
Add intelligence to a simple game using a neural network. I've always wanted to add a neural net to Oware to see if it improves its wins.
If your into pain, you could correct flaws on Windows Vista and 7. :-(
I'd recommend moving to Python rather than C++ if you're coming from a web design background. Get good at object-oriented programming, encapsulation, and related things before you go to C++ and have to deal with pointers and cleaning up after yourself.
With RoR, Java, C#, PHP etc.. what do people use C++ for these days?
You're comparing apples to oranges. Languages such as PHP, Ruby, and Python are scripting languages. They a) are interpreted, and b) don't provide the kind of low-level memory access that C++ does, and thus aren't suitable for things that need to talk directly to hardware. Java and C# both run in a runtime environment on top of a particular platform and for the same reason aren't always the best choice. In all of these cases, things such as garbage collection can get in the way of speed and performance.
Languages are just tools; you choose the best tool for the task at hand. Just because higher-level languages make many tasks easier for a particular application domain doesn't mean that lower level languages don't have their place.
C++ is the preferred language when the user experience is more important than
development cost.
Performance. When Users time is valuable enough to spend some extra development hours.
Stability. Other languages may quick whip up something of descent quality.
But If you want it flawless, C++ is a better choise. As usual in c++ it is both
easier to get it totally wrong and totally right, depending on your skill and time available.
Ease of use. You can deliver a single binary that works everywhere. No need
for inexperienced end user to fiddle with installling runtimes and
interpreters, worring about VM versions and GC tweaking.
Users resources. Just because the user has 2gb of ram doesn't mean that she
wants our program to use all of it.
Usability. If you want specialized non-standard streamlined user interface.
Something that seems to have been overlooked so far are projects where there is already a substantial C or C++ code base. Most programming work is not going into creating brand new programs. If you are so blessed as to be creating something completely de novo, great, but that's not the common situation.
It's possible to mix languages, of course, so you can have the old C++ core program with additional code written in some other language. But, this is not easy, for a number of reasons:
There's the impedance mismatch between the languages themselves. Try to send a C++ std::multiset to Perl. It's kind of like an associative array, but not really. You end up using lowest-common-denominator data structures, avoiding anything that's specific to only one of the two languages. You then lose out on some of the features you were trying to gain by mixing languages.
You have to spend a lot of effort to define some kind of API between the two parts of the program. Most programs are not already architected to have such a layer. Refactoring and packaging the old core functionality to provide this is not easy, and it's ongoing work as the program's scope expands.
You either have to integrate the interpreter for the other language into the old C++ core, or you have to run it as a separate program and arrange for coordination between these two different programs. They must start up and shut down together, they have to maintain their IPC channels, etc.
Having overcome all the above, you will frequently find yourself needing to write code for both halves of the program. You will always have some delay while your brain makes a kind of mental context shift between the two languages. It never drops to 0 delay. This soaks up some of the superior productivity of the higher-level language. This is especially bad when working on a new feature in the high-level code that requires adding something to the old C++ core, so you're constantly bouncing between the two. It can be done, but it's a drag on productivity, the main claimed advantage from switching to some other language.
Two of the most common usage of C++ I would think are graphical interfaces and video games programming.
Almost everything on the desktop (except paint.net)
Everything on the server that RoR, php etc is running on top of (any language that can't write it's own compiler is probably written in C++)
Anything embedded smaller than an iPhone
Anything with a lot of computation - that isn't in Fortran ;-) Yes I know C# performance has improved, anybody got round to rewriting LAPACK, BLAS or NAG in it yet?
edit -
Is there a badge for most comments?
This is why SO doesn't work for discussions. Notice the order of comments change as they are voted. If you want to have childish arguements there is always reddit.
Anything where performance is a high priority. Garbage collection, HTML rendering, animation, games, intensive computation...
And from personal experience Computer-aided Design (CAD) plugins/addins are also C++, especially if you want to target multiple CAD systems (e.e Pro/Engineer, SoludWorks, CATIA, UG, AutoCAD etc).
Backends to projects. Many projects are written in multiple languages, where all the backend operations are written in C++ where APIs to other languages are provided.
The best project I can think of that does this is GNU Radio. Basically, how GNU Radio works is that all the DSP blocks (modulators, filters, etc) are written in C++. However, you make your radio using python, that is you connect the blocks together in python.
While other languages have come along. Many poeple who have used C++ in the past aren't just going to jump bandwagon with Java or C#. Linux all well and good in it's own right, but the majority of the computer Market still belongs to the Evil Empire. Java is NOT the dominant language there, no matter how much the religeous zelots claim it to be. Actually in small business apps, VB is king. I think I saw one figure giving it 58% of internal development for GUI front ends. C# is picking up momentum, but I suspect it primarily from the younger crowd who are less set in there ways. You can argue till your blue in the face virtues of a new language with someone who's been using a language for 15 years, and they just won't care. "Oh that's neat." and they turn back around and continue typing their C++.
Edit:
OS development, C maybe C++.
Tool & Langauge development, C maybe C++.
Industrial control, C, C++, Labview in somecases, FPGA development and NO trendy languages.
Embedded alot of C, some C++ and some assembly required.
(The IPhone is a general purpose palm computer, with phone capability. Not special
purpose computer designed for a singular purpose.)
PS3 C, C++ and some assembly required.
XBox360 Some C#, mostly C++ and some C and again some assembly required.
GPU Programming? It ain't PHP that's for DAMN sure.
Windows Programming C++, C#, and even some C still, VB.
Edit:
#Jeff L:
The Cult following that many these language have, I find irrational and distasteful. I start edging away from anyone who waxes poetic about ANY language, it's just mental. It's not a matter of opinion that professionally sold applications AREN'T written in Java for Window, it's fact. I'm sorry, but it's true. Maybe in the IT world it's useful, but not for shrink wrapped Windows software. I write embedded software, and the "feature" of not having pointers means that in order to do any practical work there or on OSs and device drivers requires hacks that violate the language it's self. There are cases where you have to "fly without a net" and the interpretive languages are designed SPECIFICALLY not to let you do that.
And not to be too argumentative with, but the heritage code base is a hard issue to get around. While we write new code in C and C++, I can't even get management PAY to upgrade old code written in Fortran or Ada to C or C++ forget Java that requires a whole new coding standard and butt loads procedures and documentation have to update, that cost even more. And unless the only software you write is GPL and freeware, who's paying for it is the primary concern. And in many cases "if it's isn't broke don't fix it" doesn't even apply, "if it's broke and no one bitching, we're not paying to fix" is managements choice.
Any project that needs direct hardware access, like drivers, operating systems
Any project where better performance is a competitive advantage, like games, simulations
Any project that needs a small footprint, like embedded systems
Check out the click modular router. Written completely in C++ (with some C where necessary)
A lot of micro ISVs are (enthusiastically) using C++ for almost anything you can think of.
It isn't maintained regularly, but here is a list of apps written using C++ Builder. I was pleasantly surprised to see WinRAR and Partition Magic.
I just interviewed with a company that has C++ programs using VS5.0 as they keep planning on phasing the C++ apps out, so updating is not needed. After 12 years you would expect that they would just upgrade their compiler.
If you want to use DirectX the you have to use C++ now, as MS dropped support for a Managed DirectX API.
As was mentioned, in the embedded world C++ or C is the primary languages.
If you work in a system that cannot crash, then you will may use C or C++ and just don't use new or malloc, but use arrays, so that you won't have any memory leaks, which can be a likely reason a long running process may run out of memory and crash.
If you are going to do a great deal of kernel level programming then C or C++ makes more sense as there will be some functions to call that will be incredibly difficult to call from C#, for example.
We do these projects in c++:
Simulation
Game
GIS tools
if you need performance, you should use c++...
I'm looking to be able to build GUI applications quickly and painlessly as possible. I'm competent (though not expert, and have no formal training) in C++, but have never used a GUI building toolkit or framework or anything. I am not a professional programmer and am totally inexperienced and ignorant when it comes to building GUI apps. Have spent hours researching trying to figure out what to do; only getting more confused and discouraged though.
Qt and wxWidgets seem like the most popular options for cross-platform apps, though cross-platform isn't necessarily all that important to me; Windows-only is fine if that means the fastest learning curve.
Qt seems cool and the Qt Creator is sweet looking with lots of good demos, except it has its own classes for everything, and I'm not overly keen on learning a bunch of stuff that's only applicable to the Qt platform itself rather than more generally. I suppose I could avoid using the Qt classes except for the GUI stuff where I have to use them, but I have no idea how wise or unwise that would be.
I was thinking Visual Studio would have the smallest learning curve, but when I open a test GUI app, I see a bunch of foreign looking stuff like carats (^) all over the place - I found online that these mean "handles", which I have trouble even understanding the definition or purpose of ("sort of like pointers but not really" is basically how I've read people define them).
I know pretty much nothing about wxWidgets, or how it compares with Qt.
So every option has a big learning curve - and ideally I'd like to know which one minimizes the time you have to spend learning the toolkit/framework itself. Since I'm likely never going to be making money from the programs I create, the time I spend learning a specific toolkit would be pretty costly. I just want to be able to make a functional program using the C++ knowledge I have, but in GUI form. At the moment it seems if I want to make a GUI app, I'd have to spend way more time learning the GUI framework I'd use than writing the functional part of the app itself.
Any input from people wiser and more experienced than me would be appreciated :)
First and foremost, start simple. There's a lot to the subject. If you are finding it hard, don't try and take it in all at once.
Most of the good GUI packages have tutorials. The best advice I can give is that you try each of them, or at least a couple of them. They are the best short introduction you can have to the library you choose and if they are any good they narrow down what you need to absorb at first. That will give you some basis for comparison, because they are each trying to do very similar things (and you will see some of them before you are done), but they have different feels. You will likely find you have a preference for one and that's the one to get serious with. It will also give you a sense of what's hard about GUI programming as separate from the particulars of one package, which, if you have only used one, you won't have seen. Personally I find this sort of knowledge very helpful, because it makes me less intimidated by particulars.
Here's a list of tutorials in one place, though you have likely seen them already:
Qt's tutorial
WxWidgets' tutorial
Gtkmm book. Not quite a tutorial, though there are lots of examples.
.NET tutorials, either for WinForms or for WPF.
Second, it sounds to me that you need to get some in depth understanding of the concepts of GUI programming, not just a particular library. Here there is no substitute for a book. I don't know all of them by a long shot, but the best of the bunch will not just teach you the details of a toolkit, they will teach you general concepts and how to use them. Here are some lists to start with though (and once you have titles, Amazon and Stack Overflow will help to pick one):
List of Qt books
WxWidgets book (PDF version)
There are tons of WPF and WinForms books. I can't make a good recommendation here unfortunately.
Third, take advantage of the design tools (Qt Creator, VS's form building and so on). Don't start by trying to read through all the code they generate: get your own small programs running first. Otherwise it's too hard to know what matters for a basic program and what doesn't. The details get lost. Once you've got the basics down though, Do use them as references to learn how to do specific effects. If you can get something to work in the design tools, then you can look at particular code they generate to be able to try on your own hand-written programs. They are very useful for intermediate learning.
I'm not overly keen on learning a bunch of stuff that's only applicable to the Qt platform itself rather than more generally.
I second the comment of GRB here: Don't worry about this. You are going to need to learn a lot specific to the toolkit no matter which toolkit you use. But you will also learn a lot that's general to GUI programming with any of the decent toolkits, because they are going to have to cover a lot of the same ground. Layouts, events, interaction between widgets/controls, understanding timers -- these will come up in any GUI toolkit you use.
However do be aware that any serious GUI package is an investment of time. You will have a much easier time learning a second package if you decide to pick one up, but every large library has its personality and much of your time will be spent learning its quirks. That is, I think, a given in dealing with any complex subject.
I suppose I could avoid using the Qt classes except for the GUI stuff where I have to use them, but I have no idea how wise or unwise that would be.
You do not need most of the non-GUI classes of Qt to use Qt's GUI properly. There are a handful of exceptions (like QVariant) which you'll need just because the GUI classes use them. I found you can learn those on a case-by-case basis.
Which is the easiest to learn is really going to depend on how you personally learn.
Personally, I've found Qt to be the easiest to learn so far. The GUI classes are rather nice to use, but I've found the non-GUI classes to be excellent, making it easy to avoid a lot of common issues you'd normally get with a more basic API. The documentation is excellent, IMO, as are the books, the examples, etc. It's also being very actively developed, with a few new technologies coming in the near future (like DeclarativeUI).
I've found Visual Studio/Windows API/.Net to be a good bit more complicated to learn. The API documentation on MSDN is rather complicated and not really organized in a manner that I find intuitive.
I've tried learning WxWidgets a few times, but I've never liked the API documentation.
All this is just my personal experience, YMMV of course. I'd say just dabble in all of them and see which one takes you the furthest, it won't hurt to try multiple.
As a person who learned C++ through Qt, I can only say that they work very well together. C++ purists (like I have become) will find lots of things in Qt not to their liking (the moc preprocessor, e.g., and the continued absence of exceptions for error reporting), but looking back, Qt provided a very gentle introduction to C++ for me.
And if you're like me, you throw in a handful of boost libs in each Qt project, because we want to write "real" C++, not the softened thing Qt uses :)
I would suggest wxWidgets. To me, it's pretty intuitive and looks nice.
Code::Blocks was built with it, so check that out to see if you like the graphics.
There are also a slew of bindings for wxWidgets, such as wxPython, wxErlang, and others, so if you decide to switch off of C++, you can take wxWidgets with you.
I also use wxWidgets and use it all the time for Windows-only applications (the only downside is that wxWidgets is notorious for large .exe filesizes, which may or may not be a problem for you). I found it very simple to use from the start, especially when combined with a GUI designer (personally I use wxDev-C++).
I've never used Qt, so I can't speak to its simplicity, but I doubt the difficulty is on a vastly different scale than that of wxWidgets. However, what I can say is that no matter what API you use (wxWidgets, Qt, WinAPI, etc) your code will be "locked into" that particular platform, so don't worry if you feel that learning Qt will lock you into the Qt platform (because the same thing will happen with any of those APIs).
If you're working solely on Windows however, you may want to do a few simple programs with WinAPI first. That way you have a basic understanding of the lowest level of Windows GUI programming before you move onto Qt/wxWidgets. That said, if you're really into cross-platform programming, then don't worry about that and go straight into Qt/wxWidgets.
I can't intelligently comment on the learning curve aspect, but a quick survey of StackOverflow questions shows about twice as many Visual C++ questions as Qt questions. Probably means that there is a larger support group in place for Visual C++. Might make learning it a little easier if there are more folks to help out.
No matter what you pick, I am quite sure it won't be easy and painless.
Having said that, I know that in some schools they use FLTK because they consider it relativelly easy to learn. I have never tried it.
In my everyday work I use WTL which is as close to the system as it gets while still providing some level of abstraction over pure Win32. I am not sure if I would consider it easy to learn, though, especially given the lack of documentation.
I recommend codegear C++ builder (previously known as borland C++ builder) from codegear which comes with a 30 trial. The nicest thing about it is that the GUI provides you with components that you drop onto a form in a WYSIWYG fashion and make functional by adding code to handle the events it fires. It comes with a whole bunch of compontents out of the box and you can add 3rd party components to it too, like the awesome ExpressQuantumGrid from devexpress, or write your own. It's very powerfull if you know what you're doing but intuitive enough that a beginner can write a database CRUD application in about 20 lines of very simple code.
Since nobody has mentioned it yet, for the sake of completeness, have a plug for the Fox toolkit. This is the one I used last time I did any C++ UI work of my own volition. There are also binding for this to Ruby and Python (the latter being many years out of date, though).
In general, the choice of a toolkit for self-directed work comes down to personal preferences for
the layout manager style
the event handler registration style
How native the widget set looks/can be made to look
If cross-platforming is not necessary, try .net + msvs or delphi. easy, all-in-one, no pain.
Qt is the best option for you. It's the easiest to learn, the most elegant and powerful and it is completely free.
Visual C++: This is an IDE, but it comes with its own GUI library called MFC. MFC is an old library with many quirks and it is difficult to learn and use. Many C++ programmers use it on Windows because it comes from MS, it's fast and it's free if you buy Visual C++. Since VC++ is an IDE, you can also use wxWidgets and Qt with it, although in your particular case I would recommend Qt Creator instead.
You seem to have experimented with Managed C++. Don't use that, even MS recommends that you only use Managed C++ as glue between C++ and C#.
wxWidgets: This one was a strong contender up to the day when Qt became free for commercial projects. It was always in the shadow of Qt and it is known that the documentation is not very good and the API is not as easy to learn as Qt's. Cross-platform MFC would be a good way to describe it.
C++ Builder: Borland made too many mistakes with C++ Builder and ended up getting out of the dev tools business altogether. It was a good product and I originally learned Windows GUI programming in one of the first versions, but I won't use it any more. There are better options and it is too expensive.
As it currently stands, this question is not a good fit for our Q&A format. We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or expertise, but this question will likely solicit debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion. If you feel that this question can be improved and possibly reopened, visit the help center for guidance.
Closed 10 years ago.
Will learning C++ help me build native applications with good speed? Will it help me as a programmer, and what are the other benefits?
The reason why I want to learn C++ is because I'm disappointed with the UI performances of applications built on top of JVM and .NET. They feel slow, and start slow too. Of course, a really bad programmer can create a slower and sluggish application using C++ too, but I'm not considering that case.
One of my favorite Windows utility application is Launchy. And in the Readme.pdf file, the author of the program wrote this:
0.6 This is the first C++ release. As I became frustrated with C#’s large
.NET framework requirements and users
lack of desire to install it, I
decided to switch back to the faster
language.
I totally agree with the author of Launchy about the .NET framework requirement or even a JRE requirement for desktop applications. Let alone the specific version of them. And some of the best and my favorite desktop applications don't need .NET or Java to run. They just run after installing. Are they mostly built using C++? Is C++ the only option for good and fast GUI based applications?
And, I'm also very interested in hearing the other benefits of learning C++.
yep, C++ is absolutely great. Check Qt. It has a great Python binding too, so you can easily prototype in Python, and when/if you need extra performance, porting to C++ is a mostly 1:1 translation.
But in fact, writing C++ isn't so hard either when you have a great platform, the worst part is writing all the class declarations :-)
If you want to build Windows applications that will run without frameworks such as .NET or virtual machines/interpreters, then your only really viable choices are going to be Visual Basic or C/C++
I've written some small Windows apps before in C++ code, and there is definitely a benefit in terms of speed and ease of deployment, at the expense of difficulty going up for development. C++ can be very fast, natively compiles, has many modern language features, and wide support. The trade off is that it's likely that you'll need to write more code in certain situations, or seek out libraries like Boost that provide the functionality you're after.
As a programmer, working in C++ and especially in C is good experience for helping you understand something just a tad closer to the machine than say, .NET, Java or a scripting language like VBScript, Python, Perl etc. It won't necessarily make you a better programmer, but if you are open to learning new lessons from it you may find that it helps you gain a new perspective on software. After all, most of the frameworks and systems you depend on are written in pure C, so it will never hurt you to understand the foundations. C++ is a different animal from straight C, but if you develop in C++ for Windows you'll likely find yourself working in a mix of C and C++ to work with Windows APIs, so it will have a trickle-down effect.
I wrote C++ windows apps for 10 years and switched to c# about 2 years ago to work on the latest product. I am embarrassed by how pathetic the C# app is. It takes 20 seconds to start up, you have to wait a second or so for it to switch between screens. I've used some third party GUI control library, and that leaks memory like a sieve! My app runs at 150 meg, and its doing hardly anything.
I am looking to go back to C++.
You can use MFC, it will be far quicker than .Net. Or, if you really want to burn, check out WTL - aLthough, there's not much documentation for that. I suggest you go with either MFC or Qt because you'll find plenty of good information and tutorials for them.
I can see that C# can be quicker to develop with, and maybe in some future version it will be quicker and smaller.
You will hate my answer:
The biggest bottlenecks in GUI development usually are not because of the language. After all most of the time in most applications the UI is idling, waiting for some user input. I can hear your screams already, but I said in most of the apps.
Let's put it this way: I am pretty sure that one can design a good UI on top of the .Net CLR. Learning C++ is a good thing, but will not solve the inherent problems of developing a good UI.
As always. It depends.
As long as you stay away from microsofts large Frameworks, as MFC, .net etc your applications can be blazing fast, but hard to code. Your benefit: You will really learn how windows is working behind its nice(?)surface. Just look into the initialisation code for COM-Objects and you know what I mean. You will never see such things in VB or C#
You have to program each button, each window and each control by yourself, sending silly window messages, however your applications are small, very small. This is an forgotten art:
Write small, fast programs
Good luck!
If you're committed to learning the raw, gritty details of Win32, then C++ will get you there. If you're not, then you'll end up using a bunch of wrappers anyway. For something like a small utility or especially something like a shell extension (where trying to use .NET will cause you problems anyway), C++ will let you write effective code with the absolute minimum in external dependencies. For a larger app, YMMV - a lot of the UI sluggishness out there comes from poor design: naive algorithms, an unwillingness to spin off non-trivial operations onto separate thread(s), reliance on badly-written 3rd-party components instead of custom controls... Mistakes easily made in any language.
Here is my honest answer to this.
First, I think every programmer should learn C/C++ just for the fact that by learning C++ you learn about programming. It is a systems-level language. You have to consider the finer details of memory management and so forth. I am shocked at how many programmers do not understand the foundational aspects of a programming language or computer system. By learning C/C++, you force yourself to understand programming at a more intimate level. On top of that, if you learn how to program in C/C++, you can program in almost anything.
That isn't to say C/C++ is always the right tool for the job. It can be a total pain to debug and take longer to write more meaningful code. However, it is perfect for those situations where you need absolute control of how a program executes.
This goes to say, I don't prefer C/C++ for UI programming. You still have to use a windowing framework specific to the OS you run on (MFC,Win32,Motif,GTK,QT,etc.). These frameworks don't lend themselves to easy learning curves. For at least Windows development, .NET is really the future of UI development (even though surprisingly MFC got a major overhaul for Vista that does stuff .NET doesn't even do yet). If you write your UI in .NET, it is easier to maintain and for others to maintain.
I typically write my UI in .NET and backend in C++.
Yes and no. It's all about optimization...And since C++ allows you to work on a lower level C++ is one of the best languages to write fast applications.
However those low-level mechanics implemented in C++ could be very annoying if you're used to more abstract approaches to OOP.
Testing your software in C++ is usually a long process.
If you are looking for speed anyway, C++ would definitely be one of the best choices.
C++ will indeed potentially get you a leaner, meaner and faster application (if you do it right).
However, the .NET framework is built for comfort from a developer point of view; a vast improvement over Win32 API or MFC, which may seem like hard work in comparison, So consider how you will implement the aspects for which your application depends on .NET (there are other frameworks available that may be easier than MFC or Win32 API), and also consider the costs and license issues of using such frameworks; for example the free VC++ Express Edition for example does not include MFC support.
If you know where you application is sluggish, C++/CLI may be a solution; allowing you to mix managed and native code to accelerate the parts that need it. However if it is the GUI that is intrinsically slow rather than the application processing; this may not be a useful path.
As it currently stands, this question is not a good fit for our Q&A format. We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or expertise, but this question will likely solicit debate, arguments, polling, or extended discussion. If you feel that this question can be improved and possibly reopened, visit the help center for guidance.
Closed 10 years ago.
C++ just sucks too much of my time by making me micro-manage my own memory, making me type far too much (hello std::vector<Thingy>::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()), and boring me with long compile times. What's the single best alternative for serious real-time graphics programming? Garbage collection is a must (as is the ability to avoid its use when necessary), and speed must be competitive with C++. A reasonable story for accessing C libs is also a must.
(Full disclosure: I have my own answer to this, but I'm interested to see what others have found to be good alternatives to C++ for real-time graphics work.)
Edit: Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies. Given that there's really no "right" answer to this question I won't be selecting any particular answer. Besides I'd just pick the language I happen to like as a C++ alternative, which wouldn't really be fair.
What about D Programming Language?
Some links requested in the comment:
Win32 Api
Derelict (Multimedia lib)
I wouldn't discard C++. In fact, I would consider adding Boost to your C++ library, which makes the language much more usable. Your example would become:
BOOST_FOREACH( Thingy& t, lostOfThingys ) {
// do something with 't'
}
Boost has tons of tools that help make C++ a better language.
C# is a nice language that fits your requirements, and it is definitely suited for graphics, thanks to the efforts of Microsoft to provide it with great tools and libraries like Visual Studio and XNA.
Real-time + garbage collection don't match very well I'm afraid.
It's a bit hard to make any real-time response guarantees if a garbage collector can kick in at any time and spend an undefined amount of processing...
I disagree with your premise. When used carefully and properly, C++ is a great language, especially for a domain like real-time graphics, where speed is of the essence.
Memory management becomes easy if you design your system well, and use stl containers and smart pointers.
std::vector::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()) will become much shorter if you use
using namespace std;
typedef vector::const_iterator ThingyConstIter;
And you can shorten compile times significantly by breaking up your systems into reasonably self-contained modules, by using precompiled headers, or by using the PIMPL idiom.
Perhaps a hybrid approach. Python and C++ make a good combination (see, for example, PyGame).
Some variation of Lisp that compiles to machine code could be almost as fast as C++ for this kind of programming. The Naughty Dog team created a version of Lisp called Game Oriented Assembly Lisp, which they used to create several AAA titles, including the Jak and Daxter series. The two major impediments to a Lisp approach in the game industry would be the entrenched nature of C/C++ development (both tools and human assets are heavily invested in C/C++), as well as the difficulty of finding talented engineers who are stars in both the game programming domain and the Lisp language.
Many programming teams in the industry are shifting to a hybrid approach wherein the real-time code, especially graphics and physics code, is written in C or C++, but game logic is done in a higher-level scripting language, which is accessible to and editable by programmers and non-programmers alike. Lua and Python are both popular for higher-level scripting.
Let's not forget to mention the new 'auto' use:
auto it = lotsOfThingys.begin(); // Let the compiler figure it out.
auto it2 = lotsOfFoos.begin();
if (it==it2) // It's still strongly typed; a Thingy iter is not a Foo iter.
As a developer/researcher/professor of 3D VR applications for some 20 years I would suggest there is no alternative (except possibly C). The only way to reduce latency and enable real-time interaction is an optimized compiled language (eg C or C++) with access to a fast relaible 3D graphics library such as OpenGL. While I agree it is flustrating to have to code everything, this is also essential for performanc and optimization.
Sometimes, looking outside the beaten path you can find a real gem. You might want to consider PureBasic (Don't let the name mislead you). Here's some details:
PureBasic Features
Machine Code (Assembly) executables (FASM)
In-line Assembly support
No run-times needed (no DLLs needed,etc.) 1 executable file
Tiny executables (as small or smaller/as fast or faster than C++ w/out the runtime)
You can write DLLs
Multi-thread support
Full OS API support
Multi-platform support
Windows 95-2003
Linux
Mac-OS X
Amiga
2D & 3D game development
DirectX
OGRE
Generous Licensing
Inexpensive (79 Euros or about $112)
Life-time license (all future updates & versions included)
One price for all platforms
External Library support
3rd party DLLs
User Libraries
On-line Support
Responsive development team led by it's creator
On-line forum
One place for answers (don’t have to go all over the net)
Huge amount of sample code (try code out while in IE with IEtool)
Fast replies to questions
Bonus learning (alternative to learning C++)
API
Structures
Interfaces
Pointers
Visit the online forum to get a better idea of PureBasic (http://www.purebasic.fr/english/index.php) or the main site: www.purebasic.com
I completely agree with the mention of C# for graphics programming. It has the slight disadvantage of being a managed language and allowing the garbage collector free reign over your application is framerate suicide after a while but with some relatively intelligent pool allocations made early in the program's life any real issues can be avoided.
Several people have already mentioned XNA, which is incredibly friendly and well-documented and I would like to echo that recommendation as well. I'm personally using it for my hobby game projects and it has treated me very well.
XNA isn't the only alternative, though. There is also SlimDX which is under constant development as a means of providing a lean wrapper of DirectX in a similar fashion as Managed DirectX (which was, I believe, discontinued by Microsoft in favor of XNA). Both are worthy of research: http://code.google.com/p/slimdx/
There are no true alternatives for big AAA titles, especially on the consoles. For smaller titles C# should do.
C# is a good answer here - it has a fair garbage collection (although you'd have to profile it quite a bit - to change the way you handle things now that the entire memory handling is out of your hands), it is simple to use, have a lot of examples and is well documented.
In the 3D department it gives full support for shaders and effects and so - that would be my choice.
Still, C# is not as efficient as C++ and is slower due to overhead, so if it is speed and the flexibility to use any trick in the book you like (with pointers and assembly if you like to get your hands dirty) - stick to C++ and the price would be writing way more code as you mentioned, but having full control over everything including memory management.
I would say the D programming language is a good option. You can link to C object files and interface with C++ code through C libraries. D has garbage collection, inline assembly, and game developers have created bindings to SDL and OpenGL libraries, and are also actively working on new game development apis. I love D. Too bad my job doesn't demand it's use. :(
Like James (hopkin), for me, the hybrid approach is the best solution. Python and C++ is a good choice, but other style like C#/C++ works. All depends of your graphical context. For game, XNA is a good platform (limited to win32), in this case C#/C++ is the best solution. For scientific visualization, Python/C++ is accepted (like vtk's bindings in python). For mobile game JAVA/C++ can works...
If you are targeting Windows, C++/CLI (Microsoft's .NET 'managed' dialect of C++) is an interesting possibility, particularly if you want to leverage your C++ experience. You can mix native code (e.g. calls to C-style libraries) with .NET managed code quite seamlessly, and take advantage of .NET GC and libraries.
As far as concerns about GC impacting 'real time' performance, I think those tend to be overblown. The multi-generational .NET GC is very good at never taking much time to do a collection, unless you are in some kind of critical low-memory situation. I write .NET code that interacts with electronic derivatives exchanges, where time delays == lots of $$$, and we have never had a GC-related issue. A few milliseconds is a long, long time for the GC, but not for a human interacting with a piece of software, even a 'real time' game. If you really need true "real time" performance (for medical devices, process control, etc.) then you can't use Windows anyway - it's just not a real-time OS.
Lot of game engines can fit your need, I suppose. For example, using SDL or Cairo, if portability is needed. Lot of scripting languages (coming in general with easy syntax and garbage collection) have binding to these canvas.
Flash might be another alternative.
I will just point out Processing, which is an open source programming language and environment for people who want to program images, animation, and interactions.
Actually, it is a thin wrapper around Java, making it look like a scripting language: it has a (primitive) IDE when you can type a few lines of code and hit Run without even having to save the file. Actually it wraps the code around a class and adds a main() call, compiles it and run it in a window.
Lot of people use it for real-time exhibitions (VJ and similar).
It has the power and limitations of Java, but adds out of the box a number of nice wrappers (libraries) to simplify access to Java2D, OpenGL, SVG, etc.
Somehow, it has become a model of simple graphics language: there are several applications trying to mimic Processing in other languages, like Ruby, Scala or Python. One of the most impressive is a JavaScript implementation, using the canvas component implemented in Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc.
I vote c++0x. Partial support is already available in gcc-4.3+ using the -std=c++0x flag.
Would 'C' be too obvious an answer?
I have very successfully used C++ for the engine, with the application written in Lua on top. JavaScript is also very practical, now the latest generation of JIT based JS engines are around (tracemonkey, V8 etc).
I think C++ will be with us for a while yet; even Tim Sweeney hasn't actually switched to Haskell (pdf) yet, AFAIK :-)
Java and LWJGL (OpenGL wrapper) has worked well for me. If you're looking for more of a scene graph type library like Orge have a look at jMonkeyEngine which we used to create a google earth type application (see www.skapeworld.com). If you're sensible with object creation the garbage collection is a non issue.
If your target is a PC, I think you can try C#, or embed Lua in your C++ app and run scripts for 'high-level' stuff. However if your target is a console, you must manage your own memory!
Objective-C looks like a good match for your requirements (the latest version with optional GC), although it is too dynamic and Smalltalk-like for my taste.
XNA is your best bet I think. Being supported by the .NET framework you can build for a Windows or Xbox 360 platform by simply changing a setting in Game Studio. Best yet, all the tools are free!
If you decide to go with XNA you can easily get started using their quickstart guide
XNA Quickstart guide
It has been a rewarding and fun experiance for me so far, and a nice break from the memory management of C++.
Garbage collection is a must (as is
the ability to avoid its use when
necessary)
You can't disable a garbage collector temporarily. You would need a deterministic garbage collector then. But such a beast does come with a performance hit also. I think BEA JRockit is such a beast and then you should stick to Java.
Just to comment on your example; typedef is your friend...
typedef std::vector<Thingy> Thingys;
Thingys::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()
Don't overlook independent languages in your quest. Emergence BASIC from Ionic Wind Software has a built in DirectX 9 engine, supports OOP and can easily interface with C libraries.
http://www.ionicwind.com
James.
The best enviroment for your project is the one you get your task done in the fastest way possible. This - especially for 3D-graphics - includes libraries.
Depending on the task, you may get away with some minor directx hacking. Then you could use .NET and slimdx. Managed languages tend to be faster to programm and easier to debug.
Perhaps you need a really good 3D-engine? Try Ogre3D or Irrlicht. You need commercial grade quality (one might argue that Ogre3D offers that) - go for Cryengine or Unreal. With Ogre3D and Irrlicht you might uses .NET as well, though the ports are not always up to date and plugins are not as easyly included as in the C++ versions. For Cryengine/Unrealengine you won't have a real choice I guess.
You need it more portable? OpenGL for the rescue - though you might need some wrapper (e.g. SDL).
You need a GUI as well? wxWidgets, QT might be a possiblity.
You already have a toolchain? Your libraries need to be able to handle the file formats.
You want to write a library? C / C++ might be a solution, since most of the world can use C / C++ libraries. Perhaps with the use of COM?
There are still a lot of projects/libraries I did not mention (XNA, Boost, ...) and if you want to create some program that does not only display 3D-graphics, you might have other needs as well (Input, Sound, Network, AI, Database, GUI, ...)
To sum it up: A programming language is a tool to reach a goal. It has to be seen in the context of the task at hand. The task has its own needs and these needs may chose the language for you (e.g. you need a certain library to get a feature that takes long to programm and you can only access the library with language X).
If you need the one-does-nearly-all: try C++/CLI (perhaps in combination with C# for easier syntax).
Good question.
As for the 'making me type far too much', C++0x seems to address most of it
as mentioned:
auto it = lotsOfThingys.begin()) // ... deduce type, just like in *ML
VS2010beta implements this already.
As for the memory management - for efficiency - you will have to keep good track of memory allocations, with or without garbage collection (ie, make memory-pools, re-use allocated object sometimes) anyhow, so that eventually whether your environment is garbage collected or not, matters less. You'll have to explicitly call the gc() as well, to keep the memory from fragmenting.
Having consistent ways to manage memory is important anywhere.
RAII - is a killer feature of C++
Another thing - is that memory is just one resource, you still have to keep track of other resources with a GC, so RIAA.
Anyhow, C# - is a nice alternative in many respects, I find it a very nice language, especially the ability to write functional-style code in it (the cute lambda -> syntax, map/select 'LINQ' syntax etc), thus the possibility to write parallel code; while it's still a 'standard curly-brackets', when you (or your colleagues) need it.
Have a look to Delphi/Pascal Object and some exemples :
http://www.delphigamer.com or http://glscene.cjb.net/
You can look at Ada. There is no garbage collector but this language is oftenly used for real-time system needing high reliability. That means less debuging times for your 3D applications.
And, you can also look at Haskell, if you don't know the functional paradigm this language will look weird to you, but it's worth a bit of your time. Tim Sweeney (EPIC Inc) is considering this language as a C++ alternative.