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Closed 10 years ago.
Will learning C++ help me build native applications with good speed? Will it help me as a programmer, and what are the other benefits?
The reason why I want to learn C++ is because I'm disappointed with the UI performances of applications built on top of JVM and .NET. They feel slow, and start slow too. Of course, a really bad programmer can create a slower and sluggish application using C++ too, but I'm not considering that case.
One of my favorite Windows utility application is Launchy. And in the Readme.pdf file, the author of the program wrote this:
0.6 This is the first C++ release. As I became frustrated with C#’s large
.NET framework requirements and users
lack of desire to install it, I
decided to switch back to the faster
language.
I totally agree with the author of Launchy about the .NET framework requirement or even a JRE requirement for desktop applications. Let alone the specific version of them. And some of the best and my favorite desktop applications don't need .NET or Java to run. They just run after installing. Are they mostly built using C++? Is C++ the only option for good and fast GUI based applications?
And, I'm also very interested in hearing the other benefits of learning C++.
yep, C++ is absolutely great. Check Qt. It has a great Python binding too, so you can easily prototype in Python, and when/if you need extra performance, porting to C++ is a mostly 1:1 translation.
But in fact, writing C++ isn't so hard either when you have a great platform, the worst part is writing all the class declarations :-)
If you want to build Windows applications that will run without frameworks such as .NET or virtual machines/interpreters, then your only really viable choices are going to be Visual Basic or C/C++
I've written some small Windows apps before in C++ code, and there is definitely a benefit in terms of speed and ease of deployment, at the expense of difficulty going up for development. C++ can be very fast, natively compiles, has many modern language features, and wide support. The trade off is that it's likely that you'll need to write more code in certain situations, or seek out libraries like Boost that provide the functionality you're after.
As a programmer, working in C++ and especially in C is good experience for helping you understand something just a tad closer to the machine than say, .NET, Java or a scripting language like VBScript, Python, Perl etc. It won't necessarily make you a better programmer, but if you are open to learning new lessons from it you may find that it helps you gain a new perspective on software. After all, most of the frameworks and systems you depend on are written in pure C, so it will never hurt you to understand the foundations. C++ is a different animal from straight C, but if you develop in C++ for Windows you'll likely find yourself working in a mix of C and C++ to work with Windows APIs, so it will have a trickle-down effect.
I wrote C++ windows apps for 10 years and switched to c# about 2 years ago to work on the latest product. I am embarrassed by how pathetic the C# app is. It takes 20 seconds to start up, you have to wait a second or so for it to switch between screens. I've used some third party GUI control library, and that leaks memory like a sieve! My app runs at 150 meg, and its doing hardly anything.
I am looking to go back to C++.
You can use MFC, it will be far quicker than .Net. Or, if you really want to burn, check out WTL - aLthough, there's not much documentation for that. I suggest you go with either MFC or Qt because you'll find plenty of good information and tutorials for them.
I can see that C# can be quicker to develop with, and maybe in some future version it will be quicker and smaller.
You will hate my answer:
The biggest bottlenecks in GUI development usually are not because of the language. After all most of the time in most applications the UI is idling, waiting for some user input. I can hear your screams already, but I said in most of the apps.
Let's put it this way: I am pretty sure that one can design a good UI on top of the .Net CLR. Learning C++ is a good thing, but will not solve the inherent problems of developing a good UI.
As always. It depends.
As long as you stay away from microsofts large Frameworks, as MFC, .net etc your applications can be blazing fast, but hard to code. Your benefit: You will really learn how windows is working behind its nice(?)surface. Just look into the initialisation code for COM-Objects and you know what I mean. You will never see such things in VB or C#
You have to program each button, each window and each control by yourself, sending silly window messages, however your applications are small, very small. This is an forgotten art:
Write small, fast programs
Good luck!
If you're committed to learning the raw, gritty details of Win32, then C++ will get you there. If you're not, then you'll end up using a bunch of wrappers anyway. For something like a small utility or especially something like a shell extension (where trying to use .NET will cause you problems anyway), C++ will let you write effective code with the absolute minimum in external dependencies. For a larger app, YMMV - a lot of the UI sluggishness out there comes from poor design: naive algorithms, an unwillingness to spin off non-trivial operations onto separate thread(s), reliance on badly-written 3rd-party components instead of custom controls... Mistakes easily made in any language.
Here is my honest answer to this.
First, I think every programmer should learn C/C++ just for the fact that by learning C++ you learn about programming. It is a systems-level language. You have to consider the finer details of memory management and so forth. I am shocked at how many programmers do not understand the foundational aspects of a programming language or computer system. By learning C/C++, you force yourself to understand programming at a more intimate level. On top of that, if you learn how to program in C/C++, you can program in almost anything.
That isn't to say C/C++ is always the right tool for the job. It can be a total pain to debug and take longer to write more meaningful code. However, it is perfect for those situations where you need absolute control of how a program executes.
This goes to say, I don't prefer C/C++ for UI programming. You still have to use a windowing framework specific to the OS you run on (MFC,Win32,Motif,GTK,QT,etc.). These frameworks don't lend themselves to easy learning curves. For at least Windows development, .NET is really the future of UI development (even though surprisingly MFC got a major overhaul for Vista that does stuff .NET doesn't even do yet). If you write your UI in .NET, it is easier to maintain and for others to maintain.
I typically write my UI in .NET and backend in C++.
Yes and no. It's all about optimization...And since C++ allows you to work on a lower level C++ is one of the best languages to write fast applications.
However those low-level mechanics implemented in C++ could be very annoying if you're used to more abstract approaches to OOP.
Testing your software in C++ is usually a long process.
If you are looking for speed anyway, C++ would definitely be one of the best choices.
C++ will indeed potentially get you a leaner, meaner and faster application (if you do it right).
However, the .NET framework is built for comfort from a developer point of view; a vast improvement over Win32 API or MFC, which may seem like hard work in comparison, So consider how you will implement the aspects for which your application depends on .NET (there are other frameworks available that may be easier than MFC or Win32 API), and also consider the costs and license issues of using such frameworks; for example the free VC++ Express Edition for example does not include MFC support.
If you know where you application is sluggish, C++/CLI may be a solution; allowing you to mix managed and native code to accelerate the parts that need it. However if it is the GUI that is intrinsically slow rather than the application processing; this may not be a useful path.
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Closed 12 years ago.
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Gui toolkits, which should I use?
I've got a fair bit of C/C++ experience - mostly for writing console application for Windows/Linux, and also a fair bit of C# experience - generally for writing WinForms applications etc.
I'm extremely impressed with with ease at which I can create a window in .net, for example something as simple as
Form form = new Form();
form.ShowDialog();
is enough to get a blank form up on the screen. In fact,
new Form().ShowDialog();
is technically enough as long as we don't mind losing reference to the form after it's closed.
I've tried writing some windows-based GUI stuff in C++ using windows.h, but not only does the learning curve seem a little steep but also the syntax is extremely verbose. Creating a simple window like the above mentioned single line .net implementation can easily exceed 2 dozen lines using windows.h.
But not only that, if I were to port the application over to Linux/Max (something which I can pretty much never do with .net, with the exception of hacks like mono etc), then I would need to rewrite 95% of the GUI code.
I'm assuming this is where frameworks come in, for example QT etc... (I don't really know much about gui frameworks, I'm afraid).
What GUI frameworks do you recommend? which are the most powerful and which are the easiest to use?
How do you generally tackle the task of coding your GUI in C/C++?
The closer to the metal (so to speak) that you are programming, the more difficult things get. WinForms (provided by the .NET Framework) is a pretty outstanding abstraction over the Win32 API, considering the complexity you've already seen that it involves for the even the simplest of tasks, like getting a window to appear on the screen. All of that is still happening in the background, of course (registering a window class, creating the window, etc.), you just don't have to write the code yourself.
It's interesting that you write off Mono as a "hack", but would consider a library like Qt. I'm really not sure on what basis you make the distinction. The Mono library is widely regarded as excellent when it comes to WinForms support. The biggest detractors are the same as Microsoft's own CLR implementation, namely that it doesn't produce truly native code, which is more irrelevant to performance in the majority of situations than one might think. Beyond that, some complain that Mono applications don't conform fully to the platform's UI guidelines (that is, they don't look and behave exactly like a native application would), but I have a similar complaint about applications written using Qt.
It seems like literally everyone recommends using Qt if you want to do GUI work in C++. As I mentioned above, it happens not to be my favorite library because I'm a stickler for using fully native controls and widgets provided by the platform you're currently running on. I understand that Qt has gotten a little better at this recently, but I still don't think it's up to my standards. If you're more flexible than I am (and I'll warn you that the average Mac user is not any more flexible than I am), and true platform independence is a big concern to you, it's probably the one you should opt for. Many people praise it for its design elegance and convenience, although I seriously doubt that even it offers the same simplicity as the .NET Framework's implementation.
If sheer simplicity and terseness of code is as important as the beginning of your question makes it sound, I highly recommend sticking with C# and WinForms. Things get harder as you start to remove layers of abstraction, and if you don't need the extra levels of control that doing so affords you, there's hardly any justification for making more work for yourself. Mono's Forms implementation is a perfectly viable solution for cross-platform applications, assuming your needs are relatively modest.
Beyond that, if you want to create a truly cross-platform application in C++ the right way, I recommend that you strictly separate your data layer code from your UI layer, and then write the UI using the tools provided by each platform you want to support. In Windows, your options are relatively open: .NET WinForms is a solid choice, native Win32 is a somewhat painful though merited option, and a handful of other libraries like MFC and WxWidgets can help to ease the pain of fully native programming (though not nearly as well as WinForms does). On the Mac, the only real option is Xcode, Interface Builder, and Objective-C, targeting the Cocoa framework. Linux/Unix-based systems are hardly my forte, but I'm given to understand that Qt is about as native a library as you can get. This sounds like more work than I think it is—a well-designed library should handle 80% of the work, leaving only around 20% that you have to do in implementing the UI. Beyond using truly native controls and widgets, I think the other big advantage afforded by this approach is flexibility. Notice how Microsoft Word looks very different (despite some superficial similarities) on Windows than it does on the Mac. And iTunes has become almost a paragon of excellent UI design on the Mac platform, but sticks out like a sore thumb on Windows. On the other hand, if you rolled out something like Windows Media Player on the Mac (and yes, it's been tried by Microsoft themselves, though without much success), Mac users will dismiss it as a complete abomination and probably be somewhat offended that you even tried. Not so good for the truly cross-platform-minded developer. All of that to say, if your app is anything but the simplest of utilities, you'll probably find that an entirely different interface is justified (and even expected) on each platform that you want to support.
No matter how great Qt may be, you're not going to get that with it.
Qt, hands down.
it's the most complete, most mature, fastest framework available. and on top of it, it's seriously multiplaftorm and your choice of commercially friendly open source or paid support.
I recently started C++. I am using PHP right now and decided to take a look at C++. Web programming had me working with a couple of languages, with a couple of people. I wanted to do programming where I only had to bother with one language and create small utility apps (mostly not web-based). I wanted a compiled, strongly-type language without memorizing a tome of classes. Basically I wanted to learn C++ for the following:
mobile programming (I don't ever want to go touching Java, and I don't have a Mac for Objective C or IPhone SDK)
small desktop apps like DTRs, POSs
creating small desktop-based games
creating small Air-like applications that can access the web for additional content
I heard that C++ is not beginner-friendly and is mostly used for huge projects with lots of calculations and fine details (like 3D games). Is it practical or even possible for me to use C++ for the above cases? (Sorry, I haven't delved on C++ that much yet, so aside from "huge, monolithic project", I don't know any other uses for it)
You can certainly use C++ in all the areas you mention, though whether it is best of breed for any of them is open to debate. C++ is very large and complex language, and requires a fair bit of effort to get up to speed on. If I were you, I would pick one of the areas you mention that you are most interested in, and then find out which language(s) are best suited for that area and learn that.
If you are set on learning C++ you will need to read at least one book on it - you cannot learn it from internet resources alone. See this question The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List for a book list.
On the droid you can use other languages aside from Java - check out their ASE (Active Scripting Environment). C++ / C should really only be used when you have no other choice - i.e. speed critical code, operating systems etc. It's very easy to make a mistake that's difficult to diagnose and there are lots of task where it'll take way longer than it should to write and odds are others have already done so and done it way better - reinventing the wheel is bad. If it interests you though by all means learn and eventually you may master it. It's an excellent skill to have.
It's also not a completely object oriented language however, it's a hybrid one that supports most object oriented features, but some such as inheritance and polymorphism are a bit awkward to deal with in C++ - for example you have to define methods as virtual in base classes in order to be allowed to redefine them in subclasses - sort of like predicting the future - will this method every be desired to be redefined by an inheritor? Really what happens in that case is you make the base class method virtual later on to enable it to be redefinable - that is if you happen to have access to the source code to do just that - if not then oh well. For an example of this confusing stuff in C++ and other gotchas: Pitfalls
Look at other languages such as Ruby or Python - in particular Stackless Python where a combination of it and C++ (used where necessary) was used to create EVE Online as well as the functional languages such Erlang and Haskell.
For 2, 3 and 4, I recommend C# over C++, for the reasons I wrote here.
About 1, you can do iPhone development with .NET but I've never tried it and I don't know how viable it is.
Edit
To answer your actual question: yes, it's totally practical to write small and large desktop apps in C++. Especially if you use quality tools like Visual Studio and Qt. It's just that I think it'd waste a lot of your time for no reason, unless you intend to go into professional game development eventually.
I went to C++ from PHP like you, but I was more interested in 3D games and such. Now I have moved on to C# and find it much more enjoyable than C++.
As for your specific areas of interest however, C++ is certainly an option but C# may be better.
Mobile programming with C++ is probably not a good idea. I know it's possible with NDKs and such but for a beginner it's probably not so good. For iPhone development, other than the official SDK, the next best option is the (commercial) MonoTouch framework from Novell. However, you may still need a mac to deploy (I don't know). In terms of Android, if you don't want to touch Java (don't blame you) I believe a C# framework (similar to MonoTouch) is in development and other languages may be available. Other platforms? No idea.
Small desktop apps is also very possible with C++. Assuming you're running Windows, you can use the Win32 API (pain) or the C++/CLI API (better). You could also use a different GUI framework like Qt, wxWidgets or GTK+ which are all also supported on other platforms. Again coming back to C#, GUI development using GTK# in MonoDevelop is so much fun. Having used WinForms in Visual C# Express back in my Windows days, I can say that I now enjoy the process whereas I didn't before.
Games are my main area of interest and the reason I originally picked up C++. Seeing as you've said small and desktop-based, using C++ for performance reasons is way overkill IMO. You could make a decent, fun, playable game in Python using pygame without the pain of using a language like C++. In C# (yes, I'm trying to sell it to you) you could create awesome games using the XNA framework from Microsoft or other frameworks like (my personal favorite) OpenTK.
Rich internet applications. C++ is probably not the right tool to use here. It's certainly possible but seeing as C++ has no standard networking library, you would have to figure some of this stuff out yourself. C# may not be the right tool either but it makes it a little easier. There are other options as well (like Python) but it's not something I know much about.
Despite what I've said about it, I still think C++ is a good language to learn. It teaches you about lower-level things you never think about in PHP land. If you want to learn it, the book that really helped me was "C++: A beginners guide" by Herbert Schildt and also "Programming" by Bjarne Stroustrup.
Yes, your use cases can all be done with C++, more or less (YMMV on mobile devices).
To some degree or another, a language like C# will be more rapid to develop in, however.
In my opinion, once you get away from the straight-up form design features and hack for a while in a language & application, language feature comparisons begin to diminish in meaningfulness.
I recommend C++ as a first "heavyweight" language; see here for my most recent discussion on it.
Being a C#/Java programmer, I really need to know a fact: Has Windows Programming with Win32SDK/MFC/wxWidget become antiquated?
What is the status of popularity of these technologies in software industry now?
Being a C#/Java programmer, do I need to learn Win32SDK/MFC/wxWidget now?
I think that learning the Win32 SDK is useful because it helps you understand how Windows works internally. I found learning about hooks and subclassing very fascinating. So if it interests you then you should go for it. However, you probably don't need to know Win32. It's not yet antiquated today but it may be in the future.
I never had much interest in MFC because it requires the paid version of Visual Studio.
Yes, learn Win32, even if don't ever intend to write or maintain C/C++ apps.
No, don't bother learning MFC/wxWidget now. MFC does come with its source code, so you can study how some classes implement wrappers for Win32, but that is more interesting to C++ programmers. MFC is has decreased in popularity, though Visual Studio continues to support this older tech. Learn MFC/wxWidget only for an as-needed basis, if you need to maintain some older code.
With C#/Java, you can solve a lot of problems, but there are times when you will need to use Win32 directly to achieve some task. for a variety of reasons. Maybe some functionality is simply missing from .NET/Java, or has a bug that can be avoided by going directly to Win32. Maybe your particular problem to solve has unusual or strict requirements, and you would consider writing a portion of your app in native code using some Win32 calls as necessary. Lots of examples/situations really.
Another reason to learn Win32 is that both .NET/Java are higher level abstractions (which is in itself a good thing), but it really does help to understand the internals for these reasons:
You get an appreciation of how much work .NET/Java do for you. Of course, you can do the same things in C/C++, but it takes a lot more work. Consider these two compelling .NET technologies, WPF and WCF, which do a lot work for you.
You will better understand resource management. Specifically, both .NET/Java are garbage collected environments, but you must deterministically release OS resources (explicitly calling Dispose), for such things as network connections, window handles, kernel objects, and plenty more. You should never rely on the garbage collector to release these objects for you, since the GC is non-deterministic.
Debugging, knowing the internals seriously helps here.
Knowing Win32 can sometimes help explain the API design in .NET at least. Some parts of the .NET API are modeled on Win32 API, but some parts of the .NET API are extreme improvements over some truly heinous Win32 API designs (consider the API for using GDI for example).
Finally, knowing Win32 can help solve performance problems in your apps.
Win32 won't become antiquated, until the Microsoft's popular operating systems are based on something else. At one point, Microsoft was going to replace Win32/64 with .NET in Vista, but this didn't pan out. Even for whatever replaces Win32/64 is the future, you still need to understand the OS SDK. At the risk of sounding like a salesman, I will say that learning Win32 will in fact help you write more robust applications and will greatly aid your debugging skills, two important items to help you stay employed. I would never hire a windows programmer who doesn't have at least some experience with Win32.
I would suggest "Windows via C/C++" by Richter/Nasarre, as one example of a good book on Win32 (yes, it's obviously geared towards C/C++, but these authors do an excellent job explaining Win32).
Hope this helps.
I think Win32/64 SDK will never be antiquated, as drivers or other low level programs won't be written in .NET or Java because of the performance requirements. If you are going to develop in .NET, then MFC or wxWidget is useless for you.
I develop in .NET regularly, and sincerely, every program I've ever created in .NET called some Win32 API functions. So learning Win32/64 SDK isn't pointless, but is time-consuming.
I am an architect and I recommend that all new projects use newer technologies, like .NET or Java. The difference in productivity is tremendous, at least according to my own experience with C++ and .NET.
There are two exceptions:
- I work for a software company and we are bound by the requirements of our customer, usually including the programming environment. So, if a customer only has people knowing, say, MFC, we will make an MFC project. But this is becoming rarer and rarer. If we have the choice, we will go with .NET or Java.
- You have a team with expert people in these older technologies and they are quite productive with them.
There's plenty of work for people like you, so I'd advise not learning these for job purposes. We have some MFC apps, but that's partly because it's what we had and partly because we had more faith in C++ performance, and performance is very important for them.
I wouldn't call C++ or MFC antiquated, but there's relatively less new work in it. (I would very much like to never support another Win32 program, though.) The new C++ standard should be out in 200B, and people will continue to work on it, and Microsoft has been adding new classes to MFC, so obviously there's continued interest and continued work.
For professional development, I'd suggest you learn something different, but that would be something like Lisp or Haskell, rather than C++, and as far as I can tell there's no particular virtue in knowing MFC.
Realistically Microsoft forces business to use their latest and greatest technologies. There will always be work for someone who knows both technologies because someone has to port legacy code.
Many small devices (phones) or games require lighter solutions. If you intend to work in those areas you will definitely need those technologies.
You need to decide where you want to go. Once you have a map then you can lay in the right supplies for the journey.
I found Java horrendous to work with compared to Win32. Someone needs to cut about ninety percent of the inbuilt libraries.
I wouldn't call Win32 and such antiquated. As other people have said, it really depends on the app. As a game developer, I use Win32 less and DirectX a hell of a lot more. I could double or triple my Windows code, and it would still be an extremely small portion of the project.
However, if you're writing a primarily interface application with a relatively small and lightweight backend, .NET might well be a good choice for you.
As for Haskell, I just found that to be a truly terrible language in pretty much every respect. It seemed to me that it served some abstract mathematical definition of "functional", rather than a real definition of "programmable-in".
Win32 SDK is nowadays used in niche markets, where more modern technologies can't be used for some reasons (legacy Win32 systems, games, system drivers, Windows Embedded systems). If you aren't planning on pursuing a career on these markets, I wouldn't bother learning Win32 now. It is not that is useless and has no new things to teach you, but let's face it, there are so many new technologies coming out even at the time we speak. I have a dozen of technologies/languages in my waiting list to start learning and experimenting with. You can certainly find more interesting and more career favorable technologies to learn.
Performance critical apps (games) typically use C++ Win32 API.
C# and .NET are actually built on top of the Win32 API. To access some of the advanced features of Win32 that aren't exposed through C# and .NET you use Pinvoke to manually expose a C Win32 function to your C# app.
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Closed 11 years ago.
C++ was the first programming language I really got into, but the majority of my work on it was academic or for game programming. Most of the programming jobs where I live require Java or .NET programmers and I have a fairly good idea of what technologies they require aside from the basic language. For example, a Java programmer might be required to know EJB, Servlets, Hibernate, Spring, and other technologies, libraries, and frameworks.
I'm not sure about C++, however. In real life situations, for general business programming, what are C++ programmers required to know beyond the language features? Stuff like Win32 API, certain libraries, frameworks, technologies, tools, etc.
Edit: I was thinking of the standard library as well when I said basic language, sorry if it was wrong or not clear. I was wondering if there are any more specific domain requirements similar to all the technologies Java or .NET programmers might be required to learn as apposed to what C++ programmers need to know in general. I do agree that the standard library and Boost are essential, but is there anything beyond that or is it different for every company/project/domain?
As for every language, I believe there are three interconnected levels of knowledge :
Master your language. Every programmer should (do what it takes to) master the syntax. Good references to achieve this are :
The C++ Programming Language by Bjarne Stroustrup.
Effective C++ series by Scott Meyers.
Know your libraries extensively.
STL is definitely a must as it has been included in the C++ Standard Library, so knowing it is very close to point 1 : you have to master it.
Knowing boost can be very interesting, as a multi-platform and generic library.
Know the libraries you are supposed to work with, whether it is Win32 API, OCCI, XPCOM or UNO (just a few examples here). No need to know a database library if you develop purely graphic components...
Develop your knowledge of patterns. Cannot avoid Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software here...
So, my answer to your updated question would be : know your language, know your platform, know your domain. I think there is enough work by itself here, especially in C++. It's an evergoing work that should never be overlooked.
C++ developer have to grok std and boost libraries.
List of other technologies largely depends on project type. For sure you will have some interaction with SO, so you will need to know API of your environment.
As for data-access and other stuffs there are tons for different solutions. C++ is much richer than some managed langs in that sense. 99% of old popular systems have C/C++ interface.
After you clarified your question a bit in the comment to my answer I can recommend:
Good code browser (SourceInsight or Understand For C++ for example)
Static analysis tools (Link, KlockWork Inforce, etc.)
MySQL\SQLite (I encountered these DB in a huge number of C++ projects)
UI technologies (OpenGL\GLUT, DirectX, GDI, Qt, etc)
technologies you should know as a C++ programmer (and therefore more technically knowledgeable than lesser programmers ;) ):
performance issues - what makes things go slow, how to find and fix such issues. I also mean stuff like context switching, cache lines, optimised searches, memory usage and constraints, and similar stuff that your average VB/C# developer doesn't care about.
threading issues - how to get the most from a multi-threaded app, how to detect and fix abuses of the same.
low-level communications - especially being able to connect to obscure systems that no-one else has written a toolkit for (especially radio comms), latency and bandwidth management.
Otherwise, for specific tools - it depends on what you're targeting, Windows dev will be different to Linux, different to embedded.
This will largely depend on the used platform and other constraints. As a general rule, a good (C++) programmer is (or should be) able to learn a platform-specific API in a very short time. For C++, it's much more important to understand the different tool chains (e.g. a Windows programmer should also know the GCC tool chain) and differences in compilers. Programmer should also understand limitations and platform-dependend behaviour of the language.
As for libraries, C++ programmers absolutely need to know STL and Boost. No discussion.
Standard Template Library
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Template_Library
Besides the stuff everyone listed, keep in mind that C++ programmer have space on the embedded systems market (much more than most other high level languages).So familiarity with embedded systems and development may open a lot of doors and job opportunities where you will not be competing so heavily with Java development for example. So learning to code compact code (compact after compiled) and low memory usage techniques is a good bet.
if you're using gcc you should definitely know gdb. Actually, you should be proficient with the local debugger for whichever compiler you're using. Other than that there is such a wide range of libraries used that being able to quickly pick up an API is more useful than any specific one. I would suggest learning doxygen though.
If you are using linux then Valgrind is a very usefull tool for checking how your program deals with memory access.
In no specific order
COM/ATL
DirectX
MFC & Win32
STL
GDI
BOOST
The popular way to use C++ in the mobile space would involve learning Symbian OS development.
http://developer.symbian.com
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Closed 10 years ago.
C++ just sucks too much of my time by making me micro-manage my own memory, making me type far too much (hello std::vector<Thingy>::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()), and boring me with long compile times. What's the single best alternative for serious real-time graphics programming? Garbage collection is a must (as is the ability to avoid its use when necessary), and speed must be competitive with C++. A reasonable story for accessing C libs is also a must.
(Full disclosure: I have my own answer to this, but I'm interested to see what others have found to be good alternatives to C++ for real-time graphics work.)
Edit: Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies. Given that there's really no "right" answer to this question I won't be selecting any particular answer. Besides I'd just pick the language I happen to like as a C++ alternative, which wouldn't really be fair.
What about D Programming Language?
Some links requested in the comment:
Win32 Api
Derelict (Multimedia lib)
I wouldn't discard C++. In fact, I would consider adding Boost to your C++ library, which makes the language much more usable. Your example would become:
BOOST_FOREACH( Thingy& t, lostOfThingys ) {
// do something with 't'
}
Boost has tons of tools that help make C++ a better language.
C# is a nice language that fits your requirements, and it is definitely suited for graphics, thanks to the efforts of Microsoft to provide it with great tools and libraries like Visual Studio and XNA.
Real-time + garbage collection don't match very well I'm afraid.
It's a bit hard to make any real-time response guarantees if a garbage collector can kick in at any time and spend an undefined amount of processing...
I disagree with your premise. When used carefully and properly, C++ is a great language, especially for a domain like real-time graphics, where speed is of the essence.
Memory management becomes easy if you design your system well, and use stl containers and smart pointers.
std::vector::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()) will become much shorter if you use
using namespace std;
typedef vector::const_iterator ThingyConstIter;
And you can shorten compile times significantly by breaking up your systems into reasonably self-contained modules, by using precompiled headers, or by using the PIMPL idiom.
Perhaps a hybrid approach. Python and C++ make a good combination (see, for example, PyGame).
Some variation of Lisp that compiles to machine code could be almost as fast as C++ for this kind of programming. The Naughty Dog team created a version of Lisp called Game Oriented Assembly Lisp, which they used to create several AAA titles, including the Jak and Daxter series. The two major impediments to a Lisp approach in the game industry would be the entrenched nature of C/C++ development (both tools and human assets are heavily invested in C/C++), as well as the difficulty of finding talented engineers who are stars in both the game programming domain and the Lisp language.
Many programming teams in the industry are shifting to a hybrid approach wherein the real-time code, especially graphics and physics code, is written in C or C++, but game logic is done in a higher-level scripting language, which is accessible to and editable by programmers and non-programmers alike. Lua and Python are both popular for higher-level scripting.
Let's not forget to mention the new 'auto' use:
auto it = lotsOfThingys.begin(); // Let the compiler figure it out.
auto it2 = lotsOfFoos.begin();
if (it==it2) // It's still strongly typed; a Thingy iter is not a Foo iter.
As a developer/researcher/professor of 3D VR applications for some 20 years I would suggest there is no alternative (except possibly C). The only way to reduce latency and enable real-time interaction is an optimized compiled language (eg C or C++) with access to a fast relaible 3D graphics library such as OpenGL. While I agree it is flustrating to have to code everything, this is also essential for performanc and optimization.
Sometimes, looking outside the beaten path you can find a real gem. You might want to consider PureBasic (Don't let the name mislead you). Here's some details:
PureBasic Features
Machine Code (Assembly) executables (FASM)
In-line Assembly support
No run-times needed (no DLLs needed,etc.) 1 executable file
Tiny executables (as small or smaller/as fast or faster than C++ w/out the runtime)
You can write DLLs
Multi-thread support
Full OS API support
Multi-platform support
Windows 95-2003
Linux
Mac-OS X
Amiga
2D & 3D game development
DirectX
OGRE
Generous Licensing
Inexpensive (79 Euros or about $112)
Life-time license (all future updates & versions included)
One price for all platforms
External Library support
3rd party DLLs
User Libraries
On-line Support
Responsive development team led by it's creator
On-line forum
One place for answers (don’t have to go all over the net)
Huge amount of sample code (try code out while in IE with IEtool)
Fast replies to questions
Bonus learning (alternative to learning C++)
API
Structures
Interfaces
Pointers
Visit the online forum to get a better idea of PureBasic (http://www.purebasic.fr/english/index.php) or the main site: www.purebasic.com
I completely agree with the mention of C# for graphics programming. It has the slight disadvantage of being a managed language and allowing the garbage collector free reign over your application is framerate suicide after a while but with some relatively intelligent pool allocations made early in the program's life any real issues can be avoided.
Several people have already mentioned XNA, which is incredibly friendly and well-documented and I would like to echo that recommendation as well. I'm personally using it for my hobby game projects and it has treated me very well.
XNA isn't the only alternative, though. There is also SlimDX which is under constant development as a means of providing a lean wrapper of DirectX in a similar fashion as Managed DirectX (which was, I believe, discontinued by Microsoft in favor of XNA). Both are worthy of research: http://code.google.com/p/slimdx/
There are no true alternatives for big AAA titles, especially on the consoles. For smaller titles C# should do.
C# is a good answer here - it has a fair garbage collection (although you'd have to profile it quite a bit - to change the way you handle things now that the entire memory handling is out of your hands), it is simple to use, have a lot of examples and is well documented.
In the 3D department it gives full support for shaders and effects and so - that would be my choice.
Still, C# is not as efficient as C++ and is slower due to overhead, so if it is speed and the flexibility to use any trick in the book you like (with pointers and assembly if you like to get your hands dirty) - stick to C++ and the price would be writing way more code as you mentioned, but having full control over everything including memory management.
I would say the D programming language is a good option. You can link to C object files and interface with C++ code through C libraries. D has garbage collection, inline assembly, and game developers have created bindings to SDL and OpenGL libraries, and are also actively working on new game development apis. I love D. Too bad my job doesn't demand it's use. :(
Like James (hopkin), for me, the hybrid approach is the best solution. Python and C++ is a good choice, but other style like C#/C++ works. All depends of your graphical context. For game, XNA is a good platform (limited to win32), in this case C#/C++ is the best solution. For scientific visualization, Python/C++ is accepted (like vtk's bindings in python). For mobile game JAVA/C++ can works...
If you are targeting Windows, C++/CLI (Microsoft's .NET 'managed' dialect of C++) is an interesting possibility, particularly if you want to leverage your C++ experience. You can mix native code (e.g. calls to C-style libraries) with .NET managed code quite seamlessly, and take advantage of .NET GC and libraries.
As far as concerns about GC impacting 'real time' performance, I think those tend to be overblown. The multi-generational .NET GC is very good at never taking much time to do a collection, unless you are in some kind of critical low-memory situation. I write .NET code that interacts with electronic derivatives exchanges, where time delays == lots of $$$, and we have never had a GC-related issue. A few milliseconds is a long, long time for the GC, but not for a human interacting with a piece of software, even a 'real time' game. If you really need true "real time" performance (for medical devices, process control, etc.) then you can't use Windows anyway - it's just not a real-time OS.
Lot of game engines can fit your need, I suppose. For example, using SDL or Cairo, if portability is needed. Lot of scripting languages (coming in general with easy syntax and garbage collection) have binding to these canvas.
Flash might be another alternative.
I will just point out Processing, which is an open source programming language and environment for people who want to program images, animation, and interactions.
Actually, it is a thin wrapper around Java, making it look like a scripting language: it has a (primitive) IDE when you can type a few lines of code and hit Run without even having to save the file. Actually it wraps the code around a class and adds a main() call, compiles it and run it in a window.
Lot of people use it for real-time exhibitions (VJ and similar).
It has the power and limitations of Java, but adds out of the box a number of nice wrappers (libraries) to simplify access to Java2D, OpenGL, SVG, etc.
Somehow, it has become a model of simple graphics language: there are several applications trying to mimic Processing in other languages, like Ruby, Scala or Python. One of the most impressive is a JavaScript implementation, using the canvas component implemented in Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc.
I vote c++0x. Partial support is already available in gcc-4.3+ using the -std=c++0x flag.
Would 'C' be too obvious an answer?
I have very successfully used C++ for the engine, with the application written in Lua on top. JavaScript is also very practical, now the latest generation of JIT based JS engines are around (tracemonkey, V8 etc).
I think C++ will be with us for a while yet; even Tim Sweeney hasn't actually switched to Haskell (pdf) yet, AFAIK :-)
Java and LWJGL (OpenGL wrapper) has worked well for me. If you're looking for more of a scene graph type library like Orge have a look at jMonkeyEngine which we used to create a google earth type application (see www.skapeworld.com). If you're sensible with object creation the garbage collection is a non issue.
If your target is a PC, I think you can try C#, or embed Lua in your C++ app and run scripts for 'high-level' stuff. However if your target is a console, you must manage your own memory!
Objective-C looks like a good match for your requirements (the latest version with optional GC), although it is too dynamic and Smalltalk-like for my taste.
XNA is your best bet I think. Being supported by the .NET framework you can build for a Windows or Xbox 360 platform by simply changing a setting in Game Studio. Best yet, all the tools are free!
If you decide to go with XNA you can easily get started using their quickstart guide
XNA Quickstart guide
It has been a rewarding and fun experiance for me so far, and a nice break from the memory management of C++.
Garbage collection is a must (as is
the ability to avoid its use when
necessary)
You can't disable a garbage collector temporarily. You would need a deterministic garbage collector then. But such a beast does come with a performance hit also. I think BEA JRockit is such a beast and then you should stick to Java.
Just to comment on your example; typedef is your friend...
typedef std::vector<Thingy> Thingys;
Thingys::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()
Don't overlook independent languages in your quest. Emergence BASIC from Ionic Wind Software has a built in DirectX 9 engine, supports OOP and can easily interface with C libraries.
http://www.ionicwind.com
James.
The best enviroment for your project is the one you get your task done in the fastest way possible. This - especially for 3D-graphics - includes libraries.
Depending on the task, you may get away with some minor directx hacking. Then you could use .NET and slimdx. Managed languages tend to be faster to programm and easier to debug.
Perhaps you need a really good 3D-engine? Try Ogre3D or Irrlicht. You need commercial grade quality (one might argue that Ogre3D offers that) - go for Cryengine or Unreal. With Ogre3D and Irrlicht you might uses .NET as well, though the ports are not always up to date and plugins are not as easyly included as in the C++ versions. For Cryengine/Unrealengine you won't have a real choice I guess.
You need it more portable? OpenGL for the rescue - though you might need some wrapper (e.g. SDL).
You need a GUI as well? wxWidgets, QT might be a possiblity.
You already have a toolchain? Your libraries need to be able to handle the file formats.
You want to write a library? C / C++ might be a solution, since most of the world can use C / C++ libraries. Perhaps with the use of COM?
There are still a lot of projects/libraries I did not mention (XNA, Boost, ...) and if you want to create some program that does not only display 3D-graphics, you might have other needs as well (Input, Sound, Network, AI, Database, GUI, ...)
To sum it up: A programming language is a tool to reach a goal. It has to be seen in the context of the task at hand. The task has its own needs and these needs may chose the language for you (e.g. you need a certain library to get a feature that takes long to programm and you can only access the library with language X).
If you need the one-does-nearly-all: try C++/CLI (perhaps in combination with C# for easier syntax).
Good question.
As for the 'making me type far too much', C++0x seems to address most of it
as mentioned:
auto it = lotsOfThingys.begin()) // ... deduce type, just like in *ML
VS2010beta implements this already.
As for the memory management - for efficiency - you will have to keep good track of memory allocations, with or without garbage collection (ie, make memory-pools, re-use allocated object sometimes) anyhow, so that eventually whether your environment is garbage collected or not, matters less. You'll have to explicitly call the gc() as well, to keep the memory from fragmenting.
Having consistent ways to manage memory is important anywhere.
RAII - is a killer feature of C++
Another thing - is that memory is just one resource, you still have to keep track of other resources with a GC, so RIAA.
Anyhow, C# - is a nice alternative in many respects, I find it a very nice language, especially the ability to write functional-style code in it (the cute lambda -> syntax, map/select 'LINQ' syntax etc), thus the possibility to write parallel code; while it's still a 'standard curly-brackets', when you (or your colleagues) need it.
Have a look to Delphi/Pascal Object and some exemples :
http://www.delphigamer.com or http://glscene.cjb.net/
You can look at Ada. There is no garbage collector but this language is oftenly used for real-time system needing high reliability. That means less debuging times for your 3D applications.
And, you can also look at Haskell, if you don't know the functional paradigm this language will look weird to you, but it's worth a bit of your time. Tim Sweeney (EPIC Inc) is considering this language as a C++ alternative.