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What's this about?
We have a C++ application dealing with image processing and computer vision on videos using OpenCV, we're going to rewrite it from scratch and need some help deciding what technologies to use. More specifically, I need help on how to choose the technology I'd use.
About the app
The app's functionality is divided in modules that are called in an order defined by a configuration XML file and can also be changed in runtime, but not in realtime (i.e. the application doesn't need to close, but the processing will start from scratch). These modules share data in a central datapool.
Why are we starting from scratch?
This application wasn't planned to be as dynamic as it currently strives to be, so it's grown to be a collection of buggy patches, macros and workarounds; it's now full of memory leaks, unnecessary QT dependencies, slow conversions between QT and OpenCV image formats and compilation and testing times have grown too much.
Language choice
The original code used C++, just because the guy who originally started the project only knew C++. This may be a good choice, because we need it to be as fast as possible, but there may be better choices to account for the dynamic nature of the application.
We're limited by the languages supported by OpenCV (C++, Java and Python mainly; although I've read there is also support for Ruby, Ch, C# and any JVM language)
What is needed
Speed: We're aiming for realtime tracking. This may rule out Python and Ruby.
Class Instantiation by name: Although our C++ macros and class registration system work, a language designed to be dynamic that has it's own runtime would be nice. Maybe Objective-C++, or Java.
What would be ideal
Module/Plugin/Extension/Component Framework: Why reinvent the wheel, using a good framework for this would let us focus on what's special about our app. There are many options here. Objective-C has it's NSBundles; C++ has libraries like Boost.Extension, Pluma, DynObj, FxEngine, etc; C has C-Pluff; I'd even say there are too many options.
Runtime class loading and reloading: From a developing point of view, it would be interesting to be able to compile and reload just one module. I've seen this done in via code injection in Objective-C and using Java's reflection.
What am I missing?
I have too many interesting options!
Here's where I need help, based on your experiences in modular app development, with this constraints, what kind of language/framework feature should I be looking for?
What question should I make myself about this project that would let me narrow my search?
Edit
I hadn't noticed that OpenCV had GPU bindings only for C++, so I'm stuck with it.
Now that the language is fixed, the search has narrowed a lot. I could use Objective-C++ to get the dynamism needed (Obj-C runtime + NSBundle from Cocoa/GnuStep/Cocotron), which sounds complicated; or C++ with a framework.
So I'll now narrow my question to:
Is using NSBundle in a crossplatform way with Objective-C++ easier than it sounds?
What C++ framework will provide me with hot-swappable modules?
The main reason for swapping modules in runtime is to be able to change code in a fast way, would Runtime-Compiled C++ be a better solution?
Meta: I did my research on how to ask a question like this, I hope it's acceptable.
"What question should I make myself about this project that would let me narrow my search?"
if you need gpu support(cuda/ocl), your only choice is c++.
you can safely discard C, as it won't be supported in the near future
have no fear of python, even if you need direct pixel access, that's all numpy arrays (running c-code again)
i'd be a bit sceptical of ruby, c# ch and the like, since those bindings are community based, and might not be up to date / maintained properly, while the java & python bindings are machine - generated from the c++ api, and are part of the official distribution.
If you're looking for portability and have large memory for disposal then you can go with Java.
The performance hit between C++ and Java is not that bad. For conversion between Mat and other image format I'm still not sure, coz it needs deep copy to perform that, so if your code can display the image in openCV native format then you can fasten the application
pro :
You can stop worrying about memory leak
The project is much more portable compared to C/C++(this can be wrong if you can avoid using primitive datatypes which size is non consistent and for example always use int*_t in C)
cons:
slower than C/C++
more memory and CPU clock needed
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jtp09275/index.html
I have read a few articles in the cross-platform tag. However, as I'm starting a fresh application (mostly a terminal/console app), I'm wondering about the easiest way to make it cross-platform (i.e. working for Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows). I have thought about the following:
adding various macro/tags in my code to build different binary executables for each operating system
use Qt platform to develop a cross-functional app (although the GUI and platform component would add more development time as I'm not familiar with Qt)
Your thoughts? Thanks in advance for your contribution!
Edit: Sounds like there are a lot of popular responses on Java and Qt. What are the tradeoffs between these two while we're at it?
Do not go the first way. You'll encounter a lot of problems that are already solved for you by numerous tools.
Qt is an excellent choice if you definitely want C++. In fact, it will speed up development even if you aren't familiar with it, as it has excellent documentation and is easy to use. The good part about it is that it isn't just a GUI framework, but also networking, XML, I/O and lots of other stuff you'll probably need.
If not necessary C++, I'd go with Java. C++ is far too low level language for most applications. Debugging memory management and corrupt stacks can be a nightmare.
To your edited question:
The obvious one: Java has garbage collection, C++ doesn't. It means no memory leaks in Java (unless you count possible bugs in JVM), no need to worry about dangling pointers and such.
Another obvious one: it is extremely easy to use platform-dependent code in C++ using #ifdefs. In Java it is a real pain. There is JNI but it isn't easy to use at all.
Java has very extensive support of exceptions. While C++ has exceptions too, Qt doesn't use them, and some things that generate exceptions in Java will leave you with corrupt memory and crashes in C++ (think buffer overflows).
"Write once, run everywhere." Recompiling C++ program for many platforms can be daunting. Java programs don't need to be recompiled.
It is open to debate, but I think Java has more extensive and well-defined library. The abstraction level is generally higher, the interfaces are cleaner. And it supports more useful things, like XML schemas and such. I can't think of a feature that is present in Qt, but absent in Java. Maybe multimedia or something, I'm not sure.
Both languages are very fast nowadays, so performance is usually not an issue, but Java can be a real memory hog. Not extremely important on modern hardware too, but still.
The least obvious one: C++ can be more portable than Java. One example is FreeBSD OS which had very poor support for Java some time ago (don't know if it is still the case). C++/Qt works perfectly there. If you plan on supporting a wide range of Unix systems, C++ may be a better choice.
Use Java. As much bashing as it gets/used to get, it's the best thing to get stuff working across any platform. Sure, you will still need to handle external OS related functions you may be using, but it's much better than using anything else.
Apart from Java, there are a few things you can run on the JVM - JRuby, Jython, Scala come to mind.
You could also write with the scripting languages directly( Ruby, Python, etc ).
C/C++ is best left for applications that demand complete memory control and high controllability.
I'd go with the QT (or some other framework) option. If you went with the first you'd find it considerably harder. After all, you have to know what to put into the various conditionally compiled sections for all the platforms you're targeting.
I would suggest using a technology designed for cross-platform application development. Here are two technologies I know of that -- as long as you read the documentation and use the features properly -- you can build the application to run on all 3 platforms:
Java
XULRunner (Mozilla's Development Platform)
Of course, there is always the web. I mostly use web applications not just for their portability, but also because they run on my Windows PC, my Ubuntu computer, and my Mac.
We mainly build web applications because the web is the future. Local applications are viewed in my organization as mostly outdated, unless there is of course some feature or technology the web doesn't yet support that holds that application back from being fully web-based.
I would also suggest Github's electron which allows to build cross platform desktop applications using NodeJs and the Google's Chromium. The only drawback for this method is that an electron application run much slower than a native C++ application due to the abstraction layers between Javascript and native C++.
If you're making a console app, you should be able to use the same source for all three platforms if you stick to the functions defined in the POSIX libraries. Setting up your build environment is the most complicated part, especially if you want to be able to build for multiple platforms out of the same source tree.
I'd say if you really want to use C++, QT is the easiest way for cross-platform application, I found myself using QT when I need an UI even though QT has a large set of library which makes pretty much everything easier in C++.
If you don't want to use QT then you need a good design and a lot of abstraction to make cross-platfform application.
However I'm using more and more Python bindinq to QT for medium size application.
If you are working on a console application and you know a bit of python, you might find Python scripting much more comfortable than C++. It keeps the time comsuming stuff away to be able to focus on your application.
With RoR, Java, C#, PHP etc.. what do people use C++ for these days?
You're comparing apples to oranges. Languages such as PHP, Ruby, and Python are scripting languages. They a) are interpreted, and b) don't provide the kind of low-level memory access that C++ does, and thus aren't suitable for things that need to talk directly to hardware. Java and C# both run in a runtime environment on top of a particular platform and for the same reason aren't always the best choice. In all of these cases, things such as garbage collection can get in the way of speed and performance.
Languages are just tools; you choose the best tool for the task at hand. Just because higher-level languages make many tasks easier for a particular application domain doesn't mean that lower level languages don't have their place.
C++ is the preferred language when the user experience is more important than
development cost.
Performance. When Users time is valuable enough to spend some extra development hours.
Stability. Other languages may quick whip up something of descent quality.
But If you want it flawless, C++ is a better choise. As usual in c++ it is both
easier to get it totally wrong and totally right, depending on your skill and time available.
Ease of use. You can deliver a single binary that works everywhere. No need
for inexperienced end user to fiddle with installling runtimes and
interpreters, worring about VM versions and GC tweaking.
Users resources. Just because the user has 2gb of ram doesn't mean that she
wants our program to use all of it.
Usability. If you want specialized non-standard streamlined user interface.
Something that seems to have been overlooked so far are projects where there is already a substantial C or C++ code base. Most programming work is not going into creating brand new programs. If you are so blessed as to be creating something completely de novo, great, but that's not the common situation.
It's possible to mix languages, of course, so you can have the old C++ core program with additional code written in some other language. But, this is not easy, for a number of reasons:
There's the impedance mismatch between the languages themselves. Try to send a C++ std::multiset to Perl. It's kind of like an associative array, but not really. You end up using lowest-common-denominator data structures, avoiding anything that's specific to only one of the two languages. You then lose out on some of the features you were trying to gain by mixing languages.
You have to spend a lot of effort to define some kind of API between the two parts of the program. Most programs are not already architected to have such a layer. Refactoring and packaging the old core functionality to provide this is not easy, and it's ongoing work as the program's scope expands.
You either have to integrate the interpreter for the other language into the old C++ core, or you have to run it as a separate program and arrange for coordination between these two different programs. They must start up and shut down together, they have to maintain their IPC channels, etc.
Having overcome all the above, you will frequently find yourself needing to write code for both halves of the program. You will always have some delay while your brain makes a kind of mental context shift between the two languages. It never drops to 0 delay. This soaks up some of the superior productivity of the higher-level language. This is especially bad when working on a new feature in the high-level code that requires adding something to the old C++ core, so you're constantly bouncing between the two. It can be done, but it's a drag on productivity, the main claimed advantage from switching to some other language.
Two of the most common usage of C++ I would think are graphical interfaces and video games programming.
Almost everything on the desktop (except paint.net)
Everything on the server that RoR, php etc is running on top of (any language that can't write it's own compiler is probably written in C++)
Anything embedded smaller than an iPhone
Anything with a lot of computation - that isn't in Fortran ;-) Yes I know C# performance has improved, anybody got round to rewriting LAPACK, BLAS or NAG in it yet?
edit -
Is there a badge for most comments?
This is why SO doesn't work for discussions. Notice the order of comments change as they are voted. If you want to have childish arguements there is always reddit.
Anything where performance is a high priority. Garbage collection, HTML rendering, animation, games, intensive computation...
And from personal experience Computer-aided Design (CAD) plugins/addins are also C++, especially if you want to target multiple CAD systems (e.e Pro/Engineer, SoludWorks, CATIA, UG, AutoCAD etc).
Backends to projects. Many projects are written in multiple languages, where all the backend operations are written in C++ where APIs to other languages are provided.
The best project I can think of that does this is GNU Radio. Basically, how GNU Radio works is that all the DSP blocks (modulators, filters, etc) are written in C++. However, you make your radio using python, that is you connect the blocks together in python.
While other languages have come along. Many poeple who have used C++ in the past aren't just going to jump bandwagon with Java or C#. Linux all well and good in it's own right, but the majority of the computer Market still belongs to the Evil Empire. Java is NOT the dominant language there, no matter how much the religeous zelots claim it to be. Actually in small business apps, VB is king. I think I saw one figure giving it 58% of internal development for GUI front ends. C# is picking up momentum, but I suspect it primarily from the younger crowd who are less set in there ways. You can argue till your blue in the face virtues of a new language with someone who's been using a language for 15 years, and they just won't care. "Oh that's neat." and they turn back around and continue typing their C++.
Edit:
OS development, C maybe C++.
Tool & Langauge development, C maybe C++.
Industrial control, C, C++, Labview in somecases, FPGA development and NO trendy languages.
Embedded alot of C, some C++ and some assembly required.
(The IPhone is a general purpose palm computer, with phone capability. Not special
purpose computer designed for a singular purpose.)
PS3 C, C++ and some assembly required.
XBox360 Some C#, mostly C++ and some C and again some assembly required.
GPU Programming? It ain't PHP that's for DAMN sure.
Windows Programming C++, C#, and even some C still, VB.
Edit:
#Jeff L:
The Cult following that many these language have, I find irrational and distasteful. I start edging away from anyone who waxes poetic about ANY language, it's just mental. It's not a matter of opinion that professionally sold applications AREN'T written in Java for Window, it's fact. I'm sorry, but it's true. Maybe in the IT world it's useful, but not for shrink wrapped Windows software. I write embedded software, and the "feature" of not having pointers means that in order to do any practical work there or on OSs and device drivers requires hacks that violate the language it's self. There are cases where you have to "fly without a net" and the interpretive languages are designed SPECIFICALLY not to let you do that.
And not to be too argumentative with, but the heritage code base is a hard issue to get around. While we write new code in C and C++, I can't even get management PAY to upgrade old code written in Fortran or Ada to C or C++ forget Java that requires a whole new coding standard and butt loads procedures and documentation have to update, that cost even more. And unless the only software you write is GPL and freeware, who's paying for it is the primary concern. And in many cases "if it's isn't broke don't fix it" doesn't even apply, "if it's broke and no one bitching, we're not paying to fix" is managements choice.
Any project that needs direct hardware access, like drivers, operating systems
Any project where better performance is a competitive advantage, like games, simulations
Any project that needs a small footprint, like embedded systems
Check out the click modular router. Written completely in C++ (with some C where necessary)
A lot of micro ISVs are (enthusiastically) using C++ for almost anything you can think of.
It isn't maintained regularly, but here is a list of apps written using C++ Builder. I was pleasantly surprised to see WinRAR and Partition Magic.
I just interviewed with a company that has C++ programs using VS5.0 as they keep planning on phasing the C++ apps out, so updating is not needed. After 12 years you would expect that they would just upgrade their compiler.
If you want to use DirectX the you have to use C++ now, as MS dropped support for a Managed DirectX API.
As was mentioned, in the embedded world C++ or C is the primary languages.
If you work in a system that cannot crash, then you will may use C or C++ and just don't use new or malloc, but use arrays, so that you won't have any memory leaks, which can be a likely reason a long running process may run out of memory and crash.
If you are going to do a great deal of kernel level programming then C or C++ makes more sense as there will be some functions to call that will be incredibly difficult to call from C#, for example.
We do these projects in c++:
Simulation
Game
GIS tools
if you need performance, you should use c++...
I want to move various parts of my app into simple scripts, to allow people that do not have a strong knowledge of c++ to be able to edit and implement various features.
Because it's a real time app, I need to have some kind of multitasking for these scripts. Ideally I want it so that the c++ app calls a script function which then continues running (under the c++ thread) until either a pause point (Wait(x)), or it returns. In the case of it waiting the state needs to be saved ready for the script to be restarted the next time the app loops after the duration has expired.
The scripts also need to be able to call c++ class methods, ideally using the c++ classes rather than plain wrapper functions around c++ classes.
I don't want to spend a massive amount of time implementing this, so using an existing scripting language is preferred to writing my own. I heard that Python and Lua can be integrated into a c++ app, but I do not know how to do this to achieve my goals.
The scripts must be able to call c++ functions
The scripts must be able to "pause" when certain functions are called (eg. Wait), and be restarted again by the c++ thread
Needs to be fast -- this is for a real time app and there could potentially be a lot of scripts running.
I can probably roll the multitasking code fairly easily, provided the scripts can be saved and restarted (possibly by a different thread to the original).
You can use either Lua or Python. Lua is more "lightweight" than python. It's got a smaller memory footprint than python does and in our experience was easier to integrate (people's mileage on this point might vary). It can support a bunch of scripts running simultaneously. Lua, at least, supports stopping/starting threads in the manner you desire.
Boost.python is nice, but in my (limited) experience, it was difficult for us to get compiling for our different environments and was pretty heavyweight. It has (in my opinion) the disadvantage of requiring Boost. For some, that might not be a problem, but if you don't need Boost (or are not using it), you are introducing a ton of code to get Boost.python working. YMMV.
We have built Lua into apps on multiple platforms (win32, Xbox360 and PS3). I believe that it will work on x64. The suggestion to use Luabind is good. We wound up writing our own interface between the two and while not too complicated, having that glue code will save you a lot of time and perhaps aggravation.
With either solution though, debugging can be a pain. We currently have no good solution for debugging Lua scripts that are embedded into our app. Since we haven't used python in our apps I can't speak to what tools might be available there, but a couple of years ago the landscape was roughly the same -- poor debugging. Having scripting to extend functionality is nice, but bugs in the scripts can cause problems and might be difficult to locate.
The Lua code itself is kind of messy to work with if you need to make changes there. We have seen bugs in the Lua codebase itself that were hard to track down. I suspect that Boost::Python might have similar problems.
And with any scripting language, it's not necessarily a solution for "non-programmers" to extend functionality. It might seem like it, but you will likely wind up spending a fair amount of time either debugging scripts or even perhaps Lua.
That all said, we've been very happy with Lua and have shipped it in two games. We currently have no plans to move away from the language. All in all, we've found it better than other alternatives that were available a couple of years ago. Python (and IronPython) are other choices, but based on experience, they seem more heavy handed than Lua. I'd love to hear about other experiences there though.
I can highly recommend that you take a look at Luabind. It makes it very simple to integrate Lua in your C++ code and vice versa. It is also possible to expose whole C++ classes to be used in Lua.
Your best bet is to embed either lua (www.lua.org) or python (www.python.org). Both are used in the game industry and both access extern "C" functions relatively easily with lua having an edge here (because data types are easier to translate between lua and C). Interfacing to C++ objects will be a bit more work on your end, but you can look up how to do this on Google, or on lua or python discussion forums.
I hope that helps!
You can definitely do what you want with Python. Here are the docs on embedding Python into an application. I'm pretty sure Lua would work too, I'm just less familiar with it.
You're describing cooperative multi-tasking, where the script needs to call a Break or Wait function periodically. Perhaps a better solution would be to run the scripting language in its own thread, and then use mutexes or lock-free queues for the interfaces between the scripting language and the rest of your program. That way a buggy script that doesn't call Break() often enough can't accidentally freeze your program.
Take a look at the Boost.Python library. It looks like it should be fairly straightforward to do what you want.
Take a look at SWIG. I've used it to interface with Python, but it supports many other languages.
One more vote for Lua. It's small, it's fast, it doesnt consume much memory (for games your best bet is to allocate big buffer at the initialization and re-direct all Lua memory allocations there). We used tolua to generate bindings, but there are other options, most of them much smaller/easier to use (IMO) than boost.python.
As for debugging Lua (if you go that route), I have been using DeCoda, and it has not been bad. It pretends to be an IDE, but sorta fails at that, but you can attach The debugging process to visual studio, and go down the call stack at break points. Very handy for Tracking down that bug.
You can also embed C/C++ scripts using Ch. I've been using it for a game project I'm working on, and it does well. Nice blend of power and adaptability.
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C++ just sucks too much of my time by making me micro-manage my own memory, making me type far too much (hello std::vector<Thingy>::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()), and boring me with long compile times. What's the single best alternative for serious real-time graphics programming? Garbage collection is a must (as is the ability to avoid its use when necessary), and speed must be competitive with C++. A reasonable story for accessing C libs is also a must.
(Full disclosure: I have my own answer to this, but I'm interested to see what others have found to be good alternatives to C++ for real-time graphics work.)
Edit: Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies. Given that there's really no "right" answer to this question I won't be selecting any particular answer. Besides I'd just pick the language I happen to like as a C++ alternative, which wouldn't really be fair.
What about D Programming Language?
Some links requested in the comment:
Win32 Api
Derelict (Multimedia lib)
I wouldn't discard C++. In fact, I would consider adding Boost to your C++ library, which makes the language much more usable. Your example would become:
BOOST_FOREACH( Thingy& t, lostOfThingys ) {
// do something with 't'
}
Boost has tons of tools that help make C++ a better language.
C# is a nice language that fits your requirements, and it is definitely suited for graphics, thanks to the efforts of Microsoft to provide it with great tools and libraries like Visual Studio and XNA.
Real-time + garbage collection don't match very well I'm afraid.
It's a bit hard to make any real-time response guarantees if a garbage collector can kick in at any time and spend an undefined amount of processing...
I disagree with your premise. When used carefully and properly, C++ is a great language, especially for a domain like real-time graphics, where speed is of the essence.
Memory management becomes easy if you design your system well, and use stl containers and smart pointers.
std::vector::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()) will become much shorter if you use
using namespace std;
typedef vector::const_iterator ThingyConstIter;
And you can shorten compile times significantly by breaking up your systems into reasonably self-contained modules, by using precompiled headers, or by using the PIMPL idiom.
Perhaps a hybrid approach. Python and C++ make a good combination (see, for example, PyGame).
Some variation of Lisp that compiles to machine code could be almost as fast as C++ for this kind of programming. The Naughty Dog team created a version of Lisp called Game Oriented Assembly Lisp, which they used to create several AAA titles, including the Jak and Daxter series. The two major impediments to a Lisp approach in the game industry would be the entrenched nature of C/C++ development (both tools and human assets are heavily invested in C/C++), as well as the difficulty of finding talented engineers who are stars in both the game programming domain and the Lisp language.
Many programming teams in the industry are shifting to a hybrid approach wherein the real-time code, especially graphics and physics code, is written in C or C++, but game logic is done in a higher-level scripting language, which is accessible to and editable by programmers and non-programmers alike. Lua and Python are both popular for higher-level scripting.
Let's not forget to mention the new 'auto' use:
auto it = lotsOfThingys.begin(); // Let the compiler figure it out.
auto it2 = lotsOfFoos.begin();
if (it==it2) // It's still strongly typed; a Thingy iter is not a Foo iter.
As a developer/researcher/professor of 3D VR applications for some 20 years I would suggest there is no alternative (except possibly C). The only way to reduce latency and enable real-time interaction is an optimized compiled language (eg C or C++) with access to a fast relaible 3D graphics library such as OpenGL. While I agree it is flustrating to have to code everything, this is also essential for performanc and optimization.
Sometimes, looking outside the beaten path you can find a real gem. You might want to consider PureBasic (Don't let the name mislead you). Here's some details:
PureBasic Features
Machine Code (Assembly) executables (FASM)
In-line Assembly support
No run-times needed (no DLLs needed,etc.) 1 executable file
Tiny executables (as small or smaller/as fast or faster than C++ w/out the runtime)
You can write DLLs
Multi-thread support
Full OS API support
Multi-platform support
Windows 95-2003
Linux
Mac-OS X
Amiga
2D & 3D game development
DirectX
OGRE
Generous Licensing
Inexpensive (79 Euros or about $112)
Life-time license (all future updates & versions included)
One price for all platforms
External Library support
3rd party DLLs
User Libraries
On-line Support
Responsive development team led by it's creator
On-line forum
One place for answers (don’t have to go all over the net)
Huge amount of sample code (try code out while in IE with IEtool)
Fast replies to questions
Bonus learning (alternative to learning C++)
API
Structures
Interfaces
Pointers
Visit the online forum to get a better idea of PureBasic (http://www.purebasic.fr/english/index.php) or the main site: www.purebasic.com
I completely agree with the mention of C# for graphics programming. It has the slight disadvantage of being a managed language and allowing the garbage collector free reign over your application is framerate suicide after a while but with some relatively intelligent pool allocations made early in the program's life any real issues can be avoided.
Several people have already mentioned XNA, which is incredibly friendly and well-documented and I would like to echo that recommendation as well. I'm personally using it for my hobby game projects and it has treated me very well.
XNA isn't the only alternative, though. There is also SlimDX which is under constant development as a means of providing a lean wrapper of DirectX in a similar fashion as Managed DirectX (which was, I believe, discontinued by Microsoft in favor of XNA). Both are worthy of research: http://code.google.com/p/slimdx/
There are no true alternatives for big AAA titles, especially on the consoles. For smaller titles C# should do.
C# is a good answer here - it has a fair garbage collection (although you'd have to profile it quite a bit - to change the way you handle things now that the entire memory handling is out of your hands), it is simple to use, have a lot of examples and is well documented.
In the 3D department it gives full support for shaders and effects and so - that would be my choice.
Still, C# is not as efficient as C++ and is slower due to overhead, so if it is speed and the flexibility to use any trick in the book you like (with pointers and assembly if you like to get your hands dirty) - stick to C++ and the price would be writing way more code as you mentioned, but having full control over everything including memory management.
I would say the D programming language is a good option. You can link to C object files and interface with C++ code through C libraries. D has garbage collection, inline assembly, and game developers have created bindings to SDL and OpenGL libraries, and are also actively working on new game development apis. I love D. Too bad my job doesn't demand it's use. :(
Like James (hopkin), for me, the hybrid approach is the best solution. Python and C++ is a good choice, but other style like C#/C++ works. All depends of your graphical context. For game, XNA is a good platform (limited to win32), in this case C#/C++ is the best solution. For scientific visualization, Python/C++ is accepted (like vtk's bindings in python). For mobile game JAVA/C++ can works...
If you are targeting Windows, C++/CLI (Microsoft's .NET 'managed' dialect of C++) is an interesting possibility, particularly if you want to leverage your C++ experience. You can mix native code (e.g. calls to C-style libraries) with .NET managed code quite seamlessly, and take advantage of .NET GC and libraries.
As far as concerns about GC impacting 'real time' performance, I think those tend to be overblown. The multi-generational .NET GC is very good at never taking much time to do a collection, unless you are in some kind of critical low-memory situation. I write .NET code that interacts with electronic derivatives exchanges, where time delays == lots of $$$, and we have never had a GC-related issue. A few milliseconds is a long, long time for the GC, but not for a human interacting with a piece of software, even a 'real time' game. If you really need true "real time" performance (for medical devices, process control, etc.) then you can't use Windows anyway - it's just not a real-time OS.
Lot of game engines can fit your need, I suppose. For example, using SDL or Cairo, if portability is needed. Lot of scripting languages (coming in general with easy syntax and garbage collection) have binding to these canvas.
Flash might be another alternative.
I will just point out Processing, which is an open source programming language and environment for people who want to program images, animation, and interactions.
Actually, it is a thin wrapper around Java, making it look like a scripting language: it has a (primitive) IDE when you can type a few lines of code and hit Run without even having to save the file. Actually it wraps the code around a class and adds a main() call, compiles it and run it in a window.
Lot of people use it for real-time exhibitions (VJ and similar).
It has the power and limitations of Java, but adds out of the box a number of nice wrappers (libraries) to simplify access to Java2D, OpenGL, SVG, etc.
Somehow, it has become a model of simple graphics language: there are several applications trying to mimic Processing in other languages, like Ruby, Scala or Python. One of the most impressive is a JavaScript implementation, using the canvas component implemented in Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc.
I vote c++0x. Partial support is already available in gcc-4.3+ using the -std=c++0x flag.
Would 'C' be too obvious an answer?
I have very successfully used C++ for the engine, with the application written in Lua on top. JavaScript is also very practical, now the latest generation of JIT based JS engines are around (tracemonkey, V8 etc).
I think C++ will be with us for a while yet; even Tim Sweeney hasn't actually switched to Haskell (pdf) yet, AFAIK :-)
Java and LWJGL (OpenGL wrapper) has worked well for me. If you're looking for more of a scene graph type library like Orge have a look at jMonkeyEngine which we used to create a google earth type application (see www.skapeworld.com). If you're sensible with object creation the garbage collection is a non issue.
If your target is a PC, I think you can try C#, or embed Lua in your C++ app and run scripts for 'high-level' stuff. However if your target is a console, you must manage your own memory!
Objective-C looks like a good match for your requirements (the latest version with optional GC), although it is too dynamic and Smalltalk-like for my taste.
XNA is your best bet I think. Being supported by the .NET framework you can build for a Windows or Xbox 360 platform by simply changing a setting in Game Studio. Best yet, all the tools are free!
If you decide to go with XNA you can easily get started using their quickstart guide
XNA Quickstart guide
It has been a rewarding and fun experiance for me so far, and a nice break from the memory management of C++.
Garbage collection is a must (as is
the ability to avoid its use when
necessary)
You can't disable a garbage collector temporarily. You would need a deterministic garbage collector then. But such a beast does come with a performance hit also. I think BEA JRockit is such a beast and then you should stick to Java.
Just to comment on your example; typedef is your friend...
typedef std::vector<Thingy> Thingys;
Thingys::const_iterator it = lotsOfThingys.begin()
Don't overlook independent languages in your quest. Emergence BASIC from Ionic Wind Software has a built in DirectX 9 engine, supports OOP and can easily interface with C libraries.
http://www.ionicwind.com
James.
The best enviroment for your project is the one you get your task done in the fastest way possible. This - especially for 3D-graphics - includes libraries.
Depending on the task, you may get away with some minor directx hacking. Then you could use .NET and slimdx. Managed languages tend to be faster to programm and easier to debug.
Perhaps you need a really good 3D-engine? Try Ogre3D or Irrlicht. You need commercial grade quality (one might argue that Ogre3D offers that) - go for Cryengine or Unreal. With Ogre3D and Irrlicht you might uses .NET as well, though the ports are not always up to date and plugins are not as easyly included as in the C++ versions. For Cryengine/Unrealengine you won't have a real choice I guess.
You need it more portable? OpenGL for the rescue - though you might need some wrapper (e.g. SDL).
You need a GUI as well? wxWidgets, QT might be a possiblity.
You already have a toolchain? Your libraries need to be able to handle the file formats.
You want to write a library? C / C++ might be a solution, since most of the world can use C / C++ libraries. Perhaps with the use of COM?
There are still a lot of projects/libraries I did not mention (XNA, Boost, ...) and if you want to create some program that does not only display 3D-graphics, you might have other needs as well (Input, Sound, Network, AI, Database, GUI, ...)
To sum it up: A programming language is a tool to reach a goal. It has to be seen in the context of the task at hand. The task has its own needs and these needs may chose the language for you (e.g. you need a certain library to get a feature that takes long to programm and you can only access the library with language X).
If you need the one-does-nearly-all: try C++/CLI (perhaps in combination with C# for easier syntax).
Good question.
As for the 'making me type far too much', C++0x seems to address most of it
as mentioned:
auto it = lotsOfThingys.begin()) // ... deduce type, just like in *ML
VS2010beta implements this already.
As for the memory management - for efficiency - you will have to keep good track of memory allocations, with or without garbage collection (ie, make memory-pools, re-use allocated object sometimes) anyhow, so that eventually whether your environment is garbage collected or not, matters less. You'll have to explicitly call the gc() as well, to keep the memory from fragmenting.
Having consistent ways to manage memory is important anywhere.
RAII - is a killer feature of C++
Another thing - is that memory is just one resource, you still have to keep track of other resources with a GC, so RIAA.
Anyhow, C# - is a nice alternative in many respects, I find it a very nice language, especially the ability to write functional-style code in it (the cute lambda -> syntax, map/select 'LINQ' syntax etc), thus the possibility to write parallel code; while it's still a 'standard curly-brackets', when you (or your colleagues) need it.
Have a look to Delphi/Pascal Object and some exemples :
http://www.delphigamer.com or http://glscene.cjb.net/
You can look at Ada. There is no garbage collector but this language is oftenly used for real-time system needing high reliability. That means less debuging times for your 3D applications.
And, you can also look at Haskell, if you don't know the functional paradigm this language will look weird to you, but it's worth a bit of your time. Tim Sweeney (EPIC Inc) is considering this language as a C++ alternative.